What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?

Please tell me what the meaningful difference is to you. Obviously I don't see it, since the result in both cases is the same.
I was going to take a stab at it but the difference is less clear than it was in my head. I suppose there is a spectrum:

"When you attack, roll 1d20 + X vs AC" is clearly a mechanic
"The GM should only call for checks if there is a meaningful chance of failure" is also a mechanic, but bleeds into the category of GM advice.
"The GM should be a fan of the players" is not so much a mechanic, more so GM advice.

But I suppose the last of these is also dictating how the GM ought to respond to the players actions. Maybe it feels like not a mechanic because there is a lot of room for interpretation? You can be a fan of the players in many ways, but not as many ways to decide when to call for checks? I don't know if I'm convinced by that. I think there's something there that I haven't stated or figured precisely. Just thinking out loud.
 

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I was going to take a stab at it but the difference is less clear than it was in my head. I suppose there is a spectrum:

"When you attack, roll 1d20 + X vs AC" is clearly a mechanic
"The GM should only call for checks if there is a meaningful chance of failure" is also a mechanic, but bleeds into the category of GM advice.
"The GM should be a fan of the players" is not so much a mechanic, more so GM advice.

But I suppose the last of these is also dictating how the GM ought to respond to the players actions. Maybe it feels like not a mechanic because there is a lot of room for interpretation? You can be a fan of the players in many ways, but not as many ways to decide when to call for checks? I don't know if I'm convinced by that. I think there's something there that I haven't stated or figured precisely. Just thinking out loud.
This fuzziness is precisely why I asked the question. I have the same issues.
 

One is a mechanic and the other isn't? We aren't just talking about results here - the difference is the tool, not the output, and different games use different tools, which include systems, mechanics, and advice, to accomplish different design goals. This is why I asked about people's definition of 'mechanic' a couple of posts up as those are (ostensibly) what the thread is about. I'm not being unfriendly here.
I'm not saying you are, but I if the result is the same what difference does it make if one is called "mechanic" and the other "core text advice".
 

I'm not saying you are, but I if the result is the same what difference does it make if one is called "mechanic" and the other "core text advice".
Because they are different parts of what makes an RPG, and represent two very different design approaches to the same ends. So while those ends might be similar in isolation, they probably aren't the same in terms of overall impact. A mechanic is, or can be, discrete and specific. On the other hand, things like advice and agendas affect the entire player role and are probably a much stronger index to something we might describe as 'desired play type/experience'. A bog standard trad RPG might have a mechanic or two that could be described as narrative, but if it has narrative agendas it's probably closer to 'narrative game' than not.
 

One is a mechanic and the other isn't? We aren't just talking about results here - the difference is the tool, not the output, and different games use different tools, which include systems, mechanics, and advice, to accomplish different design goals.
Systems are just compilations of mechanics.

Advice crosses the line into mechanics anywhere that "should" or "best practice" in a sentence becomes "must" or "mandatory", whether actually stated or merely implied.

Mechanics are the assorted rules (in aggregate or individually) that tell you how to play the game and-or how to play your character(s).
 

Principles (at least in Apocalypse World) not advice or suggestions. They are instructions. The game says, "Always say what your principles demand."

Now, no one can force you to follow these instructions, but no one can force you to use a game mechanic besides through social agreement and setting boundaries.

I'd like to clarify that the principle in question is not "be a fan of the players" but "be a fan of the players' characters" and is specifically clarified to be about being curious about the characters and providing honest adversity with faith that they will be able to handle it.

Of course, I hope everyone is a fan of the people they play with.
 

Systems are just compilations of mechanics.

Advice crosses the line into mechanics anywhere that "should" or "best practice" in a sentence becomes "must" or "mandatory", whether actually stated or merely implied.

Mechanics are the assorted rules (in aggregate or individually) that tell you how to play the game and-or how to play your character(s).
Well, not that I entirely disagree but lots of system have definite 'cans' and 'shoulds' in them, like lists of ways that a GM might accomplish X (like run a mystery scenario). I don't agree that you can read them across the board as must, not in the same way as "you must roll 1d20 + stat to see if you hit in melee". The latter is a crystal clear mechanic, while the former often strays into the realm of interpretation, which is a different beast.

This isn't to say that we don't call the core book the rule book, we obviously do. But that doesn't mean everything in them works the same way or can be described the same way, because they pretty obviously can't be.
 

Principles (at least in Apocalypse World) not advice or suggestions. They are instructions. The game says, "Always say what your principles demand."

Now, no one can force you to follow these instructions, but no one can force you to use a game mechanic besides through social agreement and setting boundaries.

I'd like to clarify that the principle in question is not "be a fan of the players" but "be a fan of the players' characters" and is specifically clarified to be about being curious about the characters and providing honest adversity with faith that they will be able to handle it.

Of course, I hope everyone is a fan of the people they play with.
This is very true and as a result the agendas do function more like mechanics in some ways, I agree. The problem is that there isn't always a clear answer what the result should be, which seems to still leave them in a different category than things like fortune or experience mechanics.
 

The agenda and principles are hard, in so much as they do tell you how to generate fiction. They’re soft in that they can be replaced, re-written and even ignored if you understand the purpose behind them.

To take Apocalypse World. I ignore ‘look through cross-hairs’. I think I understand what it’s doing but not in a way that I can easily reconcile with my agenda.

I don’t really use the moves in any kind of formal way but I keep them open and on the table to make sure I do a wider range of things. They act as more of an inspiration than a thing I have to do.

‘respond with fuckery and intermittent rewards.’ Is something I need to re-write before I next play. I think I get it but I need to put it in terms that are more accessible to me.

Where as I wouldn’t suddenly re-write the ‘go aggro’ move. In that sense 'mechanics' are more fixed.

EDIT: Also because I don’t really use moves, or do so very informally, I don’t use ‘make your move but misdirect’ or ‘make your move but never speak its name.’ I’m almost certain I understand the purpose of them but I have my own method of reaching the same place.
 
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One is a mechanic and the other isn't? We aren't just talking about results here - the difference is the tool, not the output, and different games use different tools, which include systems, mechanics, and advice, to accomplish different design goals.
Here's a brief episode of RPG play:

My PC arrived at the dungeon entrance, and went down the stairs. There were two Orc guards waiting at the bottom, and they attacked me! They drove me off, and I had to run back to the village to look for help. But all that happened was that the villagers mocked me for my cowardice and failure.​

Here's one way that could happen, in play; the system is classic D&D:

The GM tells the player, You've arrived at the dungeon entrance. There are stairs going down into the ground.

The player says, "I go down the stairs."

The GM checks their notes, and sees it mentions two Orc guards. The GM rolls for a reaction - the guards are hostile - and calls for surprise rolls - the PC is surprised. The GM rolls attacks for the Orcs, they result in hp loss to the PC. When the surprise is over, the player wins the initiative, declares the retreat, and survives the rear attacks from the Orcs. The GM, noting that the Orcs are guards and not harriers, and also that it's still daylight outside, decides that the Orcs don't pursue.

The player declares that their PC goes back to the village, and the GM accepts that. The player then says that their PC looks for help; the GM rolls a reaction for the villagers, and it is low, and so narrates that as jeering instead.​

A variant on the above: the GM's notes don't list anyone at the bottom of the entrance stairs, but do say that, when a PC arrives at the dungeon, the GM should roll for a wandering monster (because this is the well-travelled interface between the outside world and the underworld). And so the Orcs are the result of a wandering monster roll, and the GM narrates them as being on lookout.

Another variant, on a different part of the above (and so quite compatible with the above variant): when the PC flees, rather than making a decision the GM rolls a morale check, with a penalty for the daylight, to see whether or not the Orcs pursue.

Here's a more different variation, which replaces some classic D&D procedures and mechanics with more 2nd ed A&D-ish ones:

The GM tells the player, You've arrived at the dungeon entrance. There are stairs going down into the ground. Do you go down?

The player says, "I go down the stairs."

The GM checks their notes, and sees it mentions two Orc guards who attack intruders. The GM calls for surprise rolls - the PC is surprised. The GM rolls attacks for the Orcs, they result in hp loss to the PC. When the surprise is over, the player wins the initiative, declares the retreat, and survives the rear attacks from the Orcs. The GM, not wanting a TPK so early in the session, decides that the Orcs don't pursue.

The player declares that their PC goes back to the village, and the GM accepts that. The player then says that their PC looks for help; but the GM decides that a better fit with what has happened is that the villagers jeer the PC, and so that's what happens.​

And here's another variant, that assumes Burning Wheel as the game being played:

The player has built a PC with a mostly Outcast background, which includes a difficult relationship with a former mentor. It's agreed between player and GM that the difficulty is that the mentor is held prisoner in a dungeon. And the player writes, as one of their Beliefs, "I'll free my mentor from the dungeon." And has an Instinct, "Always Assess when entering a dangerous place."

The GM starts actual play by telling the player, You've arrived at the dungeon entrance. There are stairs going down into the ground.

The player says, "I go down the stairs." And adds, "This seems pretty dangerous - I Assess!" The GM asks, "What are you worried about?" "Guards," answers the player. The GM decides that there's a reasonable chance there are guards here, but probably not stealthy ones, and so set the difficulty at Ob 2, The player fails the roll, and so the GM has to narrate the consequence. The GM notes that the player has Orc-wise, and so decides that there is a pair of Orc guards, who attack the PC.

The fight is resolved using Fight! The PC successfully Withdraws, up the stairs, and then the player declares that the PC flees. And declares, "Everyone knows that Orc guards don't pursue intruders in the daylight - they're not harriers!" The GM calls for a roll on Orc-wise, at an appropriate obstacle; the player succeeds, and the PC's knowledge of Orcs is accurate: there is no pursuit.

The player declares that their PC goes back to the nearest village, and the GM accepts that - there's nothing at stake. The player then says that their PC looks for help; the GM calls for a Circles test. The PC has no Village lifepaths, and so the only help they can hope to find is outcasts and vagabonds like them. The Circles test fails, and the GM narrates the failure: the villagers want nothing to do with this outsider, and certainly offer no help. Rather, they mock and jeer.​

Same "story"; pretty different play experiences! And those differences result from differences of rules, mechanics, procedures, principles, etc.

In an old thread on these boards, I described two different ways to create four piles of cards, with alternating red and black in order from A to K. One is to open the box of cards, sort all the cards, and stack them like that. The other is to successfully play out a round of solitaire. Same result/output - but pretty different experiences, and only one is a game!

It's obvious in the case of the cards. It also puzzles me that, when it comes to RPGing, so much discussion assumes that all that matters is the content of the fiction, as opposed to the game whereby that fiction is created.
 

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