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You can always tell when it's pointless to continue a discussion further when a space for a question to be clearly asked that might lead somewhere opens up... ...but then is shunted asided by the need to engage in further sneeering condescension. Yeah. This is a dead loss.

No it's not hard to come up with some kind of explanations. I've said that before. However, the idea that you can do the same thigs a normal athlete can do but better is not sufficient at high level. I've said that several times now, but it keeps getting ignored (I don't know why - it seems...

The poster in question went on to concede that he held the view I was objecting to. Under such circumstances I think I can be unswayed by some random moralising poster telling me I'm being uncharitable.

Earthdawn works in a similar way to. Being a warrior in Earthdawn means being a particular kind of magical adept.

Yeah because there's no middle ground between complete scientific understanding and anything goes because fantasy.

They are. But again this isn't about what Fighters should be able to do at high levels. It's what they should be able to do at around level 5. The point is that this kind of fudging (which of course is already happening when the Fighter takes on a giant or a dragon) doesn't get us far enough...

The fact that there is not more then there is does not mean that there is not what there is. I'm not saying that Fighter abilities need some kind of special explanation. I'm saying that they need a basic level of explanation equal to what other classes that already have. As I said we...

It's not about drawing a line. It's about knowing how the game world actually works.

Yes. The post I was responding to did. Explicitly. Hence my reply.

The point I was responding to with the reductio was not the whole post. I don't usually split up replies, but I thought that doing so in that case made that obvious that I was responding to a single line. The point I was responding to was the argument that because it's fantasy then anything...

Exactly. And we don't want them to know we're only pretending to let the dice decide do we?

In that case why not roll the die out in the open and then fudge? Why the secrecy and deception? "Sorry Bob, it looks like the Orc crit"? "Damn. And I'm down to 0 hit points" "You know Bob let's say that 20 is actually a 02". Fluid interpretative art right there.

Oh for god's sake. If you're going to patronise me at least be clear about the particular argument that I was showing leads to absurd results, otherwise you just come off as pompus and foolish.

I'd also argue that simply being able to do ordinary athletics feats but superhuman (but for some bizarre reason refusing to ackowledge that explicilty) is probably not really sufficient anyway. If the fighter can't fly by flapping his arms really hard (because it turns out there are limits to...

No they don't. I just explained how. And I gave an example of how you can give an explanation of how Fighters can do extraordinary things that involves more than just "because". Indeed. Why should they? You're arguing that the Fighter's abilities need less explanation than the wizards...

That's why GMing is an art not a science. And part of that art is knowing that when you roll the dice it's so the dice take some responsibility. If I decide the Orcs attack I decide there's a chance that they kill the PCs. I don't decide they kill the PCs, I don't decide if the PCs live. The...

I've been over this before. Wizards get magic because they spend years studying arcane tombs and serving long apprenticeships and go to schools. Sorcerer's get magic because they have the blood of dragons (or whatever). Warlocks get magic by making pacts with powerful beings who grant them...

Yes but the problem now is that the wizard is the only caster class where the GM gets control over the spellbook in the game. We now have Clerics, Sorcerers and Bards as full casters. So the old limit the wizard's access to problematic spells thing doesn't work (and hasn't worked since 2e days).

That's just wizards though right? Why would Sorcerer's need to research their spells?

But it's also not the setting as we have it. It could be the setting - it's basically how Earthdawn works - but when it comes to D&D it's only one possible interpretation.