D&D 5E A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

[James Gasik]

Yeah, was just thinking about my experiences when I couldn't find a magic shortbow to save my halflings life, lol.

 

[Mordhau]

The point I was making is that this is an incredibly uncharitable reading of the post. Has anyone actually argued that anything goes because it's fantasy? Or are they actually saying that some things beyond the reach of actual humans go because it's fantasy? Given the context, the latter is the appropriate reading.

Yes. The post I was responding to did. Explicitly. Hence my reply.

 

[Mordhau]

Would "preternatural" be acceptable? Not magical, per se, but at the line or slightly beyond the physical?

So... you can hit a creature resistant to non-magical weapons hard enough to bypass that, but maybe discarding the weapon at the end of the fight? Or "eagle-eyed" so you ignore range penalties to a semi-arbitrary range maximum?

I'm wondering where you draw the line.

It's not about drawing a line. It's about knowing how the game world actually works.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Yes. The post I was responding to did. Explicitly. Hence my reply.

In fairness, it kinda didn't but I've basically said so in subsequent posts so it's a bit of a wash.

 

[Gammadoodler]

It's not about drawing a line. It's about knowing how the game world actually works.

It's about knowing how one specific part of the world works. I haven't ever actually seen a discussion of what the mechanics or rules of magic are as a setting dependency.

No one ever says:
"Wait you could never cast a spell next to a waterfall because the noise would negate your verbal component"

Or,
"If you can't see, you can't make perform the somatic component appropriately"

Or,
"No one could survive casting near xyz types of location"

Stuff like this would be equally "common sense" as any of the physical laws used in the setting for the characters that live in that setting. Meanwhile, 100 pg threads will pop up where you can get an unironic suggestion that 10th level barbarians should die from a 20-30 ft fall no matter their hp.

Separately, Wizards and Sorcerers and Bards all cast a lot of the same spells, but none of them really explain what it is that those characters are doing that is making the magic happen.

Can anyone with the ability to provide the right VSM components do magic?

What separates a librarian with expressive hands from a wizard? Can a librarian provide the same components and do magic, or is there something more at work?

How is a bard different than a busker? What about their music (or whatever) manipulates the weave (or whatever)?

What part of a sorcerer's body holds its magic bits? Is their blood magical?

We don't really ask these questions because we accept as part of the buy in to playing the game that magic just kind of works. A similar buy in could happen regarding whatever martial abilities exist, whatever the source.

 

[Mordhau]

It's about knowing how one specific part of the world works. I haven't ever actually seen a discussion of what the mechanics or rules of magic are as a setting dependency.

No one ever says:
"Wait you could never cast a spell next to a waterfall because the noise would negate your verbal component"

Or,
"If you can't see, you can't make perform the somatic component appropriately"

Or,
"No one could survive casting near xyz types of location"

Stuff like this would be equally "common sense" as any of the physical laws used in the setting for the characters that live in that setting. Meanwhile, 100 pg threads will pop up where you can get an unironic suggestion that 10th level barbarians should die from a 20-30 ft fall no matter their hp.

Separately, Wizards and Sorcerers and Bards all cast a lot of the same spells, but none of them really explain what it is that those characters are doing that is making the magic happen.

Can anyone with the ability to provide the right VSM components do magic?

What separates a librarian with expressive hands from a wizard? Can a librarian provide the same components and do magic, or is there something more at work?

How is a bard different than a busker? What about their music (or whatever) manipulates the weave (or whatever)?

What part of a sorcerer's body holds its magic bits? Is their blood magical?

We don't really ask these questions because we accept as part of the buy in to playing the game that magic just kind of works. A similar buy in could happen regarding whatever martial abilities exist, whatever the source.

The fact that there is not more then there is does not mean that there is not what there is.

I'm not saying that Fighter abilities need some kind of special explanation. I'm saying that they need a basic level of explanation equal to what other classes that already have.

As I said we previously we have a very broad understanding understanding of how wizards, sorcerers, bards etc bend reality.

All I'm saying is do the same for Fighters. Are they like Sorcerers and their ability is inborn - do they harness something from a magical bloodline like Bloodragers in Pathfinder? Do they learn their abilities from special mystical schools like wizards or Wuxia heroses?

Are they slowly becoming gods like the high level Fighter equivalents in the Malazan Book of the Fallen?

Are all of these possible and the player gets to choose?

Just throw those of us who actually care about the implied setting of the game a we play in a bone and maybe giving Fighters something good at high level might actually stand a chance of happening at some point.

In any case, I think making such decisions would inevitably make the mechanics better because they would be more meaningful.

I don't know why there is so much discussion about jumping in this thread. The Fighter needs to be able to jump well to not be the only party member to have to find some complicated way across the acid pit at level 5 after everybody else used Misty Step. As I said earlier, being able to jump or perform feats of Strength doesn't really begin to cut it at level 18 if we're serious about keeping up with the wizard.

 

[Undrave]

Would "preternatural" be acceptable? Not magical, per se, but at the line or slightly beyond the physical?

So... you can hit a creature resistant to non-magical weapons hard enough to bypass that, but maybe discarding the weapon at the end of the fight? Or "eagle-eyed" so you ignore range penalties to a semi-arbitrary range maximum?

I'm wondering where you draw the line.

Heck, just run on action movie rules. A lot of stuff in those is totally unbelievable and would probably result in grievous injury, but it's presented in a way that flows with the reality we are seeing and it usually looks cool enough we don't care.

I think the game rules are too conservative with what they allow the characters to do. A little fudging of numbers without putting a spotlight on it and nobody would notice that the Fighter at max STR can jump a little further, lift a little more, take more damage than before and so forth.

It's not about drawing a line. It's about knowing how the game world actually works.

Eh, most people don't know how the real world works anyway. Hck, scientists STILL don't have all the details on how a friggin' bicycle works.

The world is filled with stories of fantastic people that can actually do things no level 20 Fighter can do. I think a level 20 Fighter should be able to do all those things because they're just that great.

 

[Mordhau]

Heck, just run on action movie rules. A lot of stuff in those is totally unbelievable and would probably result in grievous injury, but it's presented in a way that flows with the reality we are seeing and it usually looks cool enough we don't care.

I think the game rules are too conservative with what they allow the characters to do. A little fudging of numbers without putting a spotlight on it and nobody would notice that the Fighter at max STR can jump a little further, lift a little more, take more damage than before and so forth.

Eh, most people don't know how the real world works anyway. Hck, scientists STILL don't have all the details on how a friggin' bicycle works.

The world is filled with stories of fantastic people that can actually do things no level 20 Fighter can do. I think a level 20 Fighter should be able to do all those things because they're just that great.

They are. But again this isn't about what Fighters should be able to do at high levels. It's what they should be able to do at around level 5.

The point is that this kind of fudging (which of course is already happening when the Fighter takes on a giant or a dragon) doesn't get us far enough.

It simply doesn't do enough. You can't fuge the limits of human capability to travel between planes or to fly or swim in lava.

 

[Mordhau]

Eh, most people don't know how the real world works anyway. Hck, scientists STILL don't have all the details on how a friggin' bicycle works.

Yeah because there's no middle ground between complete scientific understanding and anything goes because fantasy.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Until WotC comes out and says magic weapons are expected, that leaves non-casters in a bit of a bind though. While resistance is obnoxious as heck, at least you can still do something as a weapon user, while the casters can fire off cantrips willy nilly (unless the creature also has elemental resistance).

I think magic items should be expected. I've never played a campaign without them.