“Who started it?” Initiative order

[Morrus]

“Who started it?” Initiative order

Sometimes a PC initiates combat and then the DM asks for initiative. That player then argues they should go first.

Surprise rounds etc. have been (IMO) inelegantly used in these situations over various editions.

I’m toying with a minor house rule — if somebody unexpectedly starts the fight, they don’t roll initiative. Everybody else does, then the person who started it goes first, with their initiative one point ahead of the first person to react.

Might try that next game session! .

 

[Quartz]

I suppose it depends upon whether or not the enemy is prepared or suspicious. Remember that this sort of thing needs to cut both ways. And just because you try to get the jump on them doesn't mean you can't roll a 1 on your initiative roll and telegraph your actions so far in advance that they can react.

 

[5ekyu]

But a lot of that can depend on the scene so very much.

i mean, what if your players just start telling you "i expect this to fall apart so i am ready for..." as a mostly default for any even possibly going to go red scene? What if the NPCs follow the same precautions.

The initiative baseline in 5e for instance, pretty much works for this kind of "both sides reasonably ready". Somebody finally makes the choice to go from "ready" to "shooting" and we all get to roll init to see who gets to their reactions and guns first.

i would say, obviously, if it is a "surprise" then the GM can apply "surprise status" to those before the "starter" in the init order. But outside of stealth, its more a war of insight vs deception IMO to see who recognizes the signs. (This becomes a case where i use the Alternate Ability Score rule to let initiative be a Wisdom check as opposed to a Dex check.)

Some players sometimes seem to think insight can and should give them an idea of what the other guy is about to do, is thinking, etc but at the same time seem to want to see their own "i now attack instead of talk" as some form of radical surprise nobody could see coming.

 

[practicalm]

I am completely happy with players rolling initiative even if they are trying to get the jump. Either the enemy acts normally until combat starts or they catch on the players trying something.

Otherwise any enemy that can hide (or be invisible) and then jump out at players would always get to go first in combat and the players might get tired of that.

 

[Ristamar]

Sometimes a PC initiates combat and then the DM asks for initiative. That player then argues they should go first.

Surprise rounds etc. have been (IMO) inelegantly used in these situations over various editions.

I’m toying with a minor house rule — if somebody unexpectedly starts the fight, they don’t roll initiative. Everybody else does, then the person who started it goes first, with their initiative one point ahead of the first person to react.

Might try that next game session! .

From a player's perspective, I'd see that as incentive to start a fight if I thought there was a chance a situation could come to blows.

That may be good or bad depending on the type of game you're running.

 

[ad_hoc]

This encourages people to all jump to doing things first. Also, if the enemies do it the players will cry foul. Ultimately it means no more talking to potential enemies.

There are plenty of instances in the action genre of people starting things only to have someone else actually act first.

At my table we avoid this completely because we ask everyone what they are doing at the same time. Then everyone rolls initiative to see who does what first.

In the end initiative is a giant opposed roll to see who gets to do the thing first. It would be like saying I grapple the creature and because I said it first I win the opposed check.

 

[aco175]

I tend to have a lot of scenes that end in combat. Some are barfights, while others are a simple orc (guarding a chest) in a 10x10ft room. Nearly all the time there is a point where someone starts getting jumpy and you know dice will be flowing soon. This is when I call for initiative. The words can continue, but on your time you can choose something else. Unless there is a CN character in the group "acting in character" then there are few times when someone is completely unaware of a fight brewing.

 

[Bacon Bits]

It sounds to me like you're rolling for initiative too early. The way we've always done it is that you can do whatever you want whenever you want, but once players start stepping on each others' toes trying to do stuff, call for initiative to be rolled. In the case where one player just starts doing combat actions, that player's actions go through (because they said it first) and then initiative is rolled. PCs that weren't paying attention will sometimes be considered surprised the first round.

 

[jgsugden]

This has always been a judgment call situation for the DM. If I decide to start a fight by drawing my two handed sword, walking across the room and attacking... well, people might be able to respond before I can get there and attack. On the other hand, if I am standing next to someone and suddenly slap them unexpectedly, it is hard to stop it.

 

[robus]

This has definitely been a struggle for me, because you want players to take the initiative (so to speak) but then retconning the initiative order after they’ve initiated the combat seems wonky.

Moving forward, I’m going to let that player begin their initiating action, but for those higher in the iniative order I’m going to let them react to it first (assuming they’re paying attention). Having initiative pre-rolled (at the end of the last encounter or at the beginning of the session) should allow me to smoothly narrate the action...

“the monsters see Joe reach for his sword and dive for cover”

or

“Joe, you see YYY begin an incantation, what do you do?”

Etc