D&D 4E 1/2 Orcs in 4E (Rich Baker scoop)

[Rechan]

Heavy Sigh. <See I can do it too. > I miss the days when you could post to EnWorld without having someone parse your response in an attempt to disparage your post.

1. The criticism is of the stated reason for excluding the half-orc from the PHB. Which you already knew.

Excuse me?

I have no reason to "deflect". If I wanted to argue about Half-Orcs not being put in the PHB, I would argue about that. But you neglected to make that argument. I read no where in your comment about Half-Orcs not being in the PHB. The objection you made is "Why are they not giving the half-orc a good story", not "Why aren't they in the PHB".

If that's your objection, state it, instead of shoving words in my mouth. There will be none of this "You knew it". I call BS.

2. Your attempted deflection has no bearing on the contradiction (as I see it) that the inclusion of the tiefling creates with regards to the exclusion of the half-orc. It also does not provide a counterpoint to the other items I listed in my post.

Your attempt to attribute non-existent malicious motivation to my words has no baring on my actual post. You said, Yoursef:

WotC is choosing not to come up with a more "pleasant" reason for the existence of the half-orc.

If they were choosing to not come up with a more pleasant reason, then they wouldn't be bothering to come up with one. But by Baker's saying, they are.

Now how about you respond to what I said? Or, if my interpretation of what you said is wrong, re-explain yourself so it is clearer. That's a lot more condusive than throwing around false accusations.

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Jesus, people are going overboard complaining about "PC police" here.

Imagine you're at the table with the 4e design team. You've just decided to add in Dragonborn, because dragonoid PC classes are really popular and deserve to be done right.

Now, what are the attractive aspects of half-orcs?
1. They're big, tough badasses.
2. They're permanent outsiders, caught between two worlds.

Well, #1 just got taken over by dragonborn, and #2 is shared with half-elves. So what part of #2 makes half-orcs "special"?

2a. They're not accepted because they're more savage and stupid than most humans.
2b. They're not accepted because orcs are basically ravening humanoid beasts, little better than wild animals.

2b leads us right back to rape or a sort of near-bestiality as backstory, which everyone here seems to agree isn't desirable. Which leaves us with 2a. So the question isn't really just how they can change the half-orc archetype to avoid rape; it's what's left when they do so. Do we really need a core race that's basically "half-elves, but dumber and uglier"?

 

[Lurks-no-More]

There's another option, and one that's more plausible than either of the above.
3. Orcs have a generally nasty culture based on strength and bravado. They raid because it's easy and profitable, in a manner something like vikings without boats. They hunt, herd, and fish, but almost never farm. They set up in a location, raid farmlands for foodstuffs and tools, and move along once the heat turns up or the supplies dry up. They trade when it is convenient to do so, and protect those who will trade with them, because sometimes you have an empty belly but a pile of gold and someone can bring food from over the mountain if they're paid well. They aren't ravening savages. They just have a brutal view of life and no respect for the property of non-orcs. However, they're not stupid and they have good relations with those they're not actually raiding, perhaps even including some governments that allow them safe passage between neighbouring lands in exchange for neutral relations.

For half-orcs, see my above.

4) If you have a bunch of warlike, brutal CN-to-CE barbarian humans living near warlike, brutal, CE-to-CN orcs, I wouldn't be all that surprised if the tribes started to blur at the edges. The two groups have more in common than they have with the gold-grabbing LN-ish dwarves in the mountains, or with the soft southern humans who keep intruding into your lands and staking out farms and forts in the regions you've fought over fair and square with your orc neighbours.


Edit: That said, I wouldn't be sorry if they ditched half-orcs and boosted orcs to a fully playable PC race, with all the racial feats and other stuff that implies.

 

[small pumpkin man]

Jesus, people are going overboard complaining about "PC police" here.

Imagine you're at the table with the 4e design team. You've just decided to add in Dragonborn, because dragonoid PC classes are really popular and deserve to be done right.

Now, what are the attractive aspects of half-orcs?
1. They're big, tough badasses.
2. They're permanent outsiders, caught between two worlds.

Well, #1 just got taken over by dragonborn, and #2 is shared with half-elves. So what part of #2 makes half-orcs "special"?

In fact, since Dragonborn seem to be an entire race of wandering ronin and Clint Eastwood style "strangers with no name", they've actually got that whole "outsider" deal going pretty good too, except with actual culture, depth, and to be honest, "coolness" to go with it that Half-Orcs do not.

Even in Eberron, where Half-Orcs have a solidified, well explained, non-rape based background, they don't really have their own culture, they're mostly just hangers on to Human and Orc culture (the Orc culture being extremely interesting), certainly much more so than the Half-Elves in the setting are hangers on in relation to humans.

Edit- Not to say people can't make interesting Half-Orc characters, point is the race is filling a niche that's already filled, and provides little extra with which to make an interesting character. Not saying Half-Orcs are badwrongfun, just trying to explain how WotC may well have have perfectly good reasons for not showcasing them in the PHB.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

It seems odd seeing the creator of Eberron (where half-orcs are not the product of rape) saying that they can't think of how to have half-orcs without ugly backstories.

Also, the comments that no human would ever deign to mate with an orc, etc. etc. are rather silly. For one thing, orcs look savage and animalistic, yes, but that's not the same thing as being an animal. And secondly, not all humans are beautiful city-dwelling "civilised" types.

Oh, and he didn't see it would be impossible. He just implied that they didn't have one yet ready and formalized as the background for, say, Dragonborn or Tiefling or Halfelf.

 

[Steely Dan]

I say leave half-orcs, and orcs, period, where they belong, in Middle-Earth.

 

[Wormwood]

I say leave half-orcs, and orcs, period, where they belong, in Middle-Earth.

Seconded.

 

[Steely Dan]

Seconded.

Right on, usually I'm met with volume arguments about 'But they're a legacy, and how can you mess with 30 years of blah blah…'

I've been DMing for about 20 years and in many settings (Toril, Krynn, Oerth, Athas, Ravenloft, Planescape, Al-Qadim etc), and my players have never come across an orc or a halfling and our D&D sessions have been just dandy.

When I run a Middle-Earth campaign (which I would love to do one day – 4th Age), then I will include halflings and orcs, just like I only include draconians in a Dragonlance campaign, or Muls in a Dark Sun campaign etc.

 

[hazel monday]

I say leave half-orcs, and orcs, period, where they belong, in Middle-Earth.

Yeah. Let's get rid of Dragons too. And elves. Swords are stupid. Let's replace those with Laser Guns. And I don't like horses either. Let's rplace horses with spaceships.
There. Now D&D is perfect.

 

[hazel monday]

Double post. My bad.