D&D 4E 1/2 Orcs in 4E (Rich Baker scoop)

[Tzarevitch]

Why do half-orcs have to be from rape. Why couldn't it be a product of love between to species. Humans might be as brutal and ugly to Elves as Orcs are to humans, but no-one claims that half-elves are the product of rape.

That is where a lot of Dragonlance half-elves came from. Dark Sun half elves tended to be the other way around.

Tzarevitch

 

[IanB]

Why do half-orcs have to be from rape. Why couldn't it be a product of love between to species. Humans might be as brutal and ugly to Elves as Orcs are to humans, but no-one claims that half-elves are the product of rape.

No-one? Isn't that the original origin story of good old Tanis from Dragonlance, who is probably the iconic half-elf of D&D (never mind Elros and Elrond)?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

But if orcs have traits conducive to courting and interbreeding with humans, and if orc culture is such that this is plausible, why not skip the whole thing? Just declare that orcs and humans can interbreed, but don't reproduce, and make orcs a playable race.

You've basically got two options on orcs.

1: Ravening savages. You can exterminate whole tribes with no guilt. See Lord of the Rings for details.
2: Your hairy, green neighbor Thog. His daughter Thoggarina has been seeing your boy Joe on the sly, and consarnit'all, you couldn't be more pleased. She'll bear him good, strong farm boys, Thoggarina will!

There's another option, and one that's more plausible than either of the above.
3. Orcs have a generally nasty culture based on strength and bravado. They raid because it's easy and profitable, in a manner something like vikings without boats. They hunt, herd, and fish, but almost never farm. They set up in a location, raid farmlands for foodstuffs and tools, and move along once the heat turns up or the supplies dry up. They trade when it is convenient to do so, and protect those who will trade with them, because sometimes you have an empty belly but a pile of gold and someone can bring food from over the mountain if they're paid well. They aren't ravening savages. They just have a brutal view of life and no respect for the property of non-orcs. However, they're not stupid and they have good relations with those they're not actually raiding, perhaps even including some governments that allow them safe passage between neighbouring lands in exchange for neutral relations.

For half-orcs, see my above.

 

[IanB]

There's another option, and one that's more plausible than either of the above.
3. Orcs have a generally nasty culture based on strength and bravado. They raid because it's easy and profitable, in a manner something like vikings without boats. They hunt, herd, and fish, but almost never farm. They set up in a location, raid farmlands for foodstuffs and tools, and move along once the heat turns up or the supplies dry up. They trade when it is convenient to do so, and protect those who will trade with them, because sometimes you have an empty belly but a pile of gold and someone can bring food from over the mountain if they're paid well. They aren't ravening savages. They just have a brutal view of life and no respect for the property of non-orcs. However, they're not stupid and they have good relations with those they're not actually raiding, perhaps even including some governments that allow them safe passage between neighbouring lands in exchange for neutral relations.

For half-orcs, see my above.

That doesn't take the "rape problem" off the table though, given what we know about how historical groups that lived like you describe behaved.

 

[Imaro]

But if orcs have traits conducive to courting and interbreeding with humans, and if orc culture is such that this is plausible, why not skip the whole thing? Just declare that orcs and humans can interbreed, but don't reproduce, and make orcs a playable race.

You've basically got two options on orcs.

1: Ravening savages. You can exterminate whole tribes with no guilt. See Lord of the Rings for details.
2: Your hairy, green neighbor Thog. His daughter Thoggarina has been seeing your boy Joe on the sly, and consarnit'all, you couldn't be more pleased. She'll bear him good, strong farm boys, Thoggarina will!

If you have the first context, the "Why can't this be love?" argument doesn't make much sense.

if you have the second context, why aren't orcs playable? And doesn't making orcs playable kind of undermine the need for half-orcs?

First, them being "ravening savages" is a human perspective. But this in and of itself does not preclude them interbreeding. If the Orcs conquered an area that contained numerous tribes, then over time interbreed with them (like so many conquering cultures in human society do) how is this not plausible. Especially if the Orcs themselves value strength and those humans who prove themselves become equals in the tribe (which is again a staple of fantasy literature). Now, I doubt even a full human from a nation ruled by orcs would be considered civilized in any other human nation, but these humans and orcs would eventually interbreed and since the humans are "equals" it wouldn't be through rape.

Second the half-orc is an outsider and allows for a fairly popular archetype of the outsider that stradles two worlds (like Worf from STNG, Manni from Brotherhood of the Wolves, even Wolverine from X-Men) between "civilization" and "savagery". The difference is a full orc wouldn't feel any need to fit in with humans? He's an orc and knows he's an orc. He doesn't supply that conflicted nature archetype that the half-orc does.

 

[buzz]

Orcs that are stylistically neutered to such a degree that humans would willingly mate with them are not orcs I want in my game. I'd much rather see a mystical explanation for half-orcs, a la folk-tale faerie baby-switching, than make them into fantasy klingons.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

While I think Half-Orcs do need some more fleshing out in terms of possible reasons for their birth, rape certainly isn't the finite one. Hell in Forgotten Realms in Faerun there is the town in Damara in the Sellswords books that is entirely Half-Orc so thus Half-Orcs breed more Half-Orcs in a very ordinary, well mannered way.

On a semi-different note, I would like to see more variability in the appearance of Half-Orcs since unlike Half-Elves where there is less noticeable difference between the races, Half-Orcs have much different physical structures so certain Half-Orcs should look much more Orcish while others much more Human.

 

[Azgulor]

A little disappointed in their lack of cojones and/or imagination in this regard.

I can understand them not wanting to dwell much on a race created out of, basically, rape. But seriously, not every half-orc child is or should be the child of a rape. They deserve a much bigger scope than that.

I say this as someone who doesn't really like the half-races in the first place, though.

Not to mention the hypocrisy of "half-orcs ugly backstory" vs. "tieflings ugly backstory". Yeah, 'cause all of the ancestors of those "descended from fiendish ancestry" were loving couples.

Yeah, yeah...I know. Having a fiendish ancestor in the family tree makes you kewl and gives you phat powrz...

 

[Professor Phobos]

Why not just say that Orcs sometimes rape human women? (And, of course, that human men sometimes rape Orc women...)

It made sense in terms of "fantasy genetics" and the necessary world-building, plus it provides some interesting avenues for character development.

Honestly I don't see what was wrong with the original explanation. Dark, obviously, and not suited perhaps to younger players, but I imagine most of D&D's audience is old enough...

 

[Imaro]

Orcs that are stylistically neutered to such a degree that humans would willingly mate with them are not orcs I want in my game. I'd much rather see a mystical explanation for half-orcs, a la folk-tale faerie baby-switching, than make them into fantasy klingons.

Yet elves lowering themselves to mating with humans (imagine what most of us would look like to beautiful,naturally graceful, semi-immortal, fae) is what?