Level Up (A5E) 1 level fighter dip too easy?

PauloR

Villager
I am based only on the A5e tools, don't own the books, but I hope the rules writing is thee same on both.

Isn't a 1 level dip in fighter too easy? And by too easy I really mean that you don't loose much progression in your base class (just one level) and what you get is more than worth it.
With one level dip you get:
  • a fighting style (that only fighters get now, and any class that uses a weapon wants them)
  • three maneuvers
  • learn any 2 combat traditions
  • get better maneuver degree progression. if I understand correctly, if you have 2 or more classes with maneuvers, you add the levels and use the better table to see the highest maneuver degree you can learn, and fighter has the best progression.
  • Not to mention weapon and armor proficiency, but that is relevant for some builds only

It feels like a no brainer dip for any fighting class (herald, marshal, rogue, ranger, beserker, some cleric builds and maybe even adepts)

Am I crazy here?
 
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WarDriveWorley

Adventurer
Well capstone abilities in A5E are much better than capstones in O5E. I mean just looking at Adept/Monk comparison.

O5E Monk Capstone:

At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.

A5E Adept Capstone:

At 20th level, you finally achieve true mastery and become more than adept—you are a grandmaster. You gain the following features.

Death Blow​

You learn how to strike with incredible force at your target’s very life force. When you hit with a melee weapon attack, you can choose to make your attack a critical hit that deals maximum damage. In addition, if the target is a creature it makes a Constitution saving throw or it is reduced to 0 hit points. You can’t use this feature again until you finish a short or long rest.

Perfection Achieved​

At 20th level, you finally achieve true mastery. Any time you roll your martial arts die, you can spend 1 exertion to roll a d12 instead. If you roll a 12 on this die, you can roll another d12 and add it to the result.

The differences are significant and make the decision to dip into a second class more impactful.

And this is the same for all the classes. I haven't run into an A5E Capstone that's just fluff yet.
 


Faolyn

(she/her)
It'd make a nice change from all those 1-level warlock dips of 05e! But since synergy feats are a thing, it might encourage people to go towards those rather than just taking one level.
 

PauloR

Villager
I don't really like one level dips for the sake of obtaining more power, turns an RPG game into a video game, but min-maxers will always exist.

In any case, getting more maneuvers and combat traditions is fine by me, since the whole point of multiclassing is getting more options (as is stated in the very entry of multiclass in A5e.tools), and your exertion pool won't increase with the dip.

I would still push the fighting style towards lvl 2 though. It's a very noticeable advantage of the fighter class and too easy to just dip for it.
 


W'rkncacnter

Adventurer
The multiclassing rules address that iirc.
they do - and they very explicitly state heralds are an exception and get a regular exertion pool if they take another class level that gets an exertion pool, since heralds normally have to spend spell slots to get exertion.
 

xiphumor

Adventurer
The way it influences maneuver degree is the biggest point for me. A one-level fighter dip was already solid in O5e, but with multiclassing maneuver progression, a one-level fighter dip can radically change the rogue, herald, and savant classes.

In addition, it’s a problem I’m running into trying to design 1/3 martial archetypes for casters
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
they do - and they very explicitly state heralds are an exception and get a regular exertion pool if they take another class level that gets an exertion pool, since heralds normally have to spend spell slots to get exertion.
All this time and I hadn't realized that! That's what I get for assuming that their text on maneuvers was the same as everyone else's!

@xiphumor, I can't remember if you addressed this or are already using this, but you may want to adapt this idea for your hexblade idea instead of straight-out giving them exertion. Or perhaps they gain fewer spell points than regular warlocks because they gain exertion.
 

niklinna

Abstraction is a tool that streamlines gameplay.
they do - and they very explicitly state heralds are an exception and get a regular exertion pool if they take another class level that gets an exertion pool, since heralds normally have to spend spell slots to get exertion.
Hm, it does not say that Heralds who take another class with combat maneuvers lose their ability to convert spell slots to exertion points. Nice perk.
 

xiphumor

Adventurer
@xiphumor, I can't remember if you addressed this or are already using this, but you may want to adapt this idea for your hexblade idea instead of straight-out giving them exertion. Or perhaps they gain fewer spell points than regular warlocks because they gain exertion.
I’m not super concerned about exertion because it’s mostly the same for everyone, and it scales with absolute level instead of class level. But thank you for the suggestion!

The bigger issue is a dip into fighter to change the progression of access to high degree maneuvers.
 

niklinna

Abstraction is a tool that streamlines gameplay.
The bigger issue is a dip into fighter to change the progression of access to high degree maneuvers.
That'll depend on what the other martial class is. Rogue and Herald are gonna get access to higher-ranked maneuvers much earlier with a Fighter dip (and eventually access to rank 5, which they otherwise wouldn't get at all). The other classes not so much. Check out the Summary tab in this spreadsheet.

 

xiphumor

Adventurer
That'll depend on what the other martial class is. Rogue and Herald are gonna get access to higher-ranked maneuvers much earlier with a Fighter dip (and eventually access to rank 5, which they otherwise wouldn't get at all).
I’m actually trying to make a 1/3 martial archetype, which under normal circumstances gets 6 maneuvers at a maximum of 3rd degree. A fighter dip for this archetype would be a HUGE change!
 

niklinna

Abstraction is a tool that streamlines gameplay.
I’m actually trying to make a 1/3 martial archetype, which under normal circumstances gets 6 maneuvers at a maximum of 3rd degree. A fighter dip for this archetype would be a HUGE change!
Yeah, you'd have to put something in your archetype to deal with that, like say the archetype's maneuver progression does not combine with base class progressions when multiclassing.
 

xiphumor

Adventurer
Yeah, you'd have to put something in your archetype to deal with that, like say the archetype's maneuver progression does not combine with base class progressions when multiclassing.
That's actually pretty brilliant. How about this?

"You use your archetype levels in every archetype that grants combat maneuvers to determine the highest degree of combat maneuvers you can learn, determined by the archetype with the greatest access, just as you would with class levels. However, if you have both class and archetype levels that grant combat maneuvers, track each separately.

For example, if you have 10 levels of fighter and you gain a level of Bladesworn Warlock, you may only take combat maneuvers of 1st degree for your new maneuvers known. You must take two more levels of fighter (or another class that grants combat maneuvers, such as rogue or ranger), in order to learn a maneuver of 4th degree."
 

niklinna

Abstraction is a tool that streamlines gameplay.
That's actually pretty brilliant. How about this?

"You use your archetype levels in every archetype that grants combat maneuvers to determine the highest degree of combat maneuvers you can learn, determined by the archetype with the greatest access, just as you would with class levels. However, if you have both class and archetype levels that grant combat maneuvers, track each separately.

For example, if you have 10 levels of fighter and you gain a level of Bladesworn Warlock, you may only take combat maneuvers of 1st degree for your new maneuvers known. You must take two more levels of fighter (or another class that grants combat maneuvers, such as rogue or ranger), in order to learn a maneuver of 4th degree."
Looks like that covers things pretty well. There might be some unintended interactions with other archetypes that grant maneuvers, but then, there are already some pretty powerful unexpected interactions within the base rules! The Narrator can always tweak the rules, of course.

Note that rogue and ranger grant combat maneuvers of 4th degree later than 10th level, however.
 


niklinna

Abstraction is a tool that streamlines gameplay.
But it doesn't matter, because the fighter class is what determines the level at which they access maneuver degrees, which was part of my point.
Ah, I see what you were getting at now. I over-scoped the parenthetical, and thought it meant you had 10 levels in rogue or ranger, instead of fighter.
 

PauloR

Villager
Yeah, you'd have to put something in your archetype to deal with that, like say the archetype's maneuver progression does not combine with base class progressions when multiclassing.
This should be baseline. But I would go one step further...

You should use the worst progression when defining maneuver progression, not the best progression. You multiclass to be more versatile, not to multiply power. That's the whole point of multiclassing IMO. Single class should always be more competent in their niche than multiclassed characters.
 

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