D&D 5E 11 spell levels... really

[Tony Vargas]

One thing I noticed about spells in AD&D, even as a kid, was that after 5th level, they just seemed to run out of ideas. You could see how cone of cold was better than ice storm was better than fireball was better than web was better than burning hands. But flesh to stone vs disintegrate vs vanish vs trap the soul? 9th level spells, again, got a sense of being genuinely better than 6-8, but 6-8 was kinda murky. Actually 4-5 was a little iffy, too.

The game could probably manage with 5 or 6 spell levels, though those aren't particularly mystically-evocative numbers like 7 or 9.

 

[Lanefan]

Points-based casting flat-out doesn't work with D&D spells if you use a linear cost, the reason being that spell levels do not increase linearly. A gate spell is not worth nine sleep spells. Spell power is closer to exponential (i.e. a spell of level X is roughly equal to 2 spells of level X-1). If you want to do a points-based system with those costs, a 9th level spell would cost 256 spell points--possibly less if you try to flatten the curve by deciding that spell power doubles every two levels instead of every one, for instance, but certainly nowhere near 9.

We used a spell point system here for years and years, and it worked quite well at low levels up to about 6th or so. After that it started to wobble, and came off the rails at about 10th. For point costs per level we used a 1-2-3-5-8-13-21... sequence, or close variant.

I say "used" though one of our games still uses this system; for my own games I've made them all work like 3e Sorcerers - slots, but full flexibility within those slots - as I detest pre-memorization of spells. So far so good through about 6th level, but I can already see that next time I'll have to slightly trim the number of slots they get as they go up in levels.

Lanefan

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

We used a spell point system here for years and years, and it worked quite well at low levels up to about 6th or so. After that it started to wobble, and came off the rails at about 10th. For point costs per level we used a 1-2-3-5-8-13-21... sequence, or close variant.

[...]

So far so good through about 6th level, but I can already see that next time I'll have to slightly trim the number of slots they get as they go up in levels.

Lanefan

So you used a non-linear cost (props for using Fibonacci ) and still started to see things fall apart when you hit mid levels; seems like the common experience from what I've seen. Even [level]^2 isn't always enough, though I haven't tried enough variations personally to get a good sense of it.

 

[Sadrik]

One thing I noticed about spells in AD&D, even as a kid, was that after 5th level, they just seemed to run out of ideas. You could see how cone of cold was better than ice storm was better than fireball was better than web was better than burning hands. But flesh to stone vs disintegrate vs vanish vs trap the soul? 9th level spells, again, got a sense of being genuinely better than 6-8, but 6-8 was kinda murky. Actually 4-5 was a little iffy, too.

The game could probably manage with 5 or 6 spell levels, though those aren't particularly mystically-evocative numbers like 7 or 9.

You are right on course with my train of thought. Spreading the goods a bit also makes it better for mid level gaming too.

 

[Cadence]

Again, you're reiterating that spells have traditionally worked in this manner, and to that I agree. I'm simply saying that they don't need to continue to do so.

::nods::: Tradition is certainly a poor reason to do something bad or very sub-optimally.

On the other-hand, in other contexts (say menus at family holiday dinners), I'm just always floored by people who assume a tradition that isn't important to them isn't important to anyone else. And so they never weigh the loss-of-comfort or increase in ill-will against whatever very slight improvement they think they're getting. (Seriously, you drink the same coffee every single day of the year, but having that main-dish or side-dish or dessert that one time a year is getting old?!?!?) Hmm... ok, back on subject...

Interesting that some early non-canonical game supplements go beyond the 9th level. One is reviewed at: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pathfinder/331179-tome-mighty-magic-1982-flashback.html#post6040396
and a few others are mentioned starting: http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-pa...laneous-d-d-collectors-guide.html#post6036555