12 year old girls love, 20+ year old people hate

80s popular is nothing like today's popular music. A lot of it was actually ground breaking music that had never been heard before. A lot of it was written by the actual bands themselves.

Today's popular music is watered down compared to that. A lot of it is actually written for the singers.

That's the problem. It's comparing grapefruits to lemons.
 

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You kids get offa my lawn!

Seriously, early rock was way simpler than the big band music that came before it. Did that make it less good? The bulk of grunge music was much simpler than the heavy metal it followed. Simpler sheet music has nothing to do with the quality.

And popular music written by the musicians who sing it is "actually written for the singers," so what? Does that mean that The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and hundreds of other bands were bad?

Really, I'm surprised that you guys can't see this for what (I think) it is: the tastes of today's youth seem horrible simply because they're not your tastes, nor that of your peers or parents. Thousands of years of complaints by elders haven't changed this cycle one bit.
 

Seriously, early rock was way simpler than the big band music that came before it. Did that make it less good?

No, because it was a new music form.

The bulk of grunge music was much simpler than the heavy metal it followed.

Again, its a different music form, and needs to be judged on its own merits.

Comparing classical European symphonic music to jazz swing to metal to prog rock to skiffle to ska on the basis of complexity is just going to give you headaches.

Simpler sheet music has nothing to do with the quality.

Its not a 1-for-1 comparison, but there is a relationship. Something can be quite simple and of high quality.

However, that's not what is going on in Teen Idol music. (See below.)

And popular music written by the musicians who sing it is "actually written for the singers," so what? Does that mean that The Beatles, Led Zeppelin, and hundreds of other bands were bad?

While both the Beatles and Led Zeppelin did do some cover tunes, there is almost nothing in their catalogs that was written for their singers by other writers. Lennon/McCartney and Page/Plant are 2 of the more successful writing duos out there, rivaled only by partnerships like Tyler/Perry, Taupin/John and Gibb/Gibb.

However, I don't count that as being a proper distinction. If you look at both Motown and Nashville, you'll find a LOT of hit songs (of various quality) written by professional songwriters, and bands that compose little if any of their own material.

And then there are iconic songwriter/performers like Bob Dylan, Carole King and Prince: all great performers, all also renown for the music they've written for others.

Really, I'm surprised that you guys can't see this for what (I think) it is: the tastes of today's youth seem horrible simply because they're not your tastes, nor that of your peers or parents.

Not it at all.

"Teen Idol" music- regardless of genre- is typically watered-down versions of what is popular among adults. Debbie Gibson and Tiffany's music was simply highly diluted versions of what artists like Madonna and Cyndi Lauper were doing. Where Madonna was singing about someone who was in a new relationship that made her feel "like a virgin" (which she clearly wasn't anymore, according to the lyrics) and Cyndi sang about masturbation, Tiff was singing a (cover) song about new intimacy and possibly going all the way. Gibson's work is similarly "cleanly racy."

Leif Garett has admitted he was trying to emulate Robert Plant- visually, if not musically. The Cassidy brothers music has elements cribbed from rock and psychidelia, but neither of those genres' edge.

Silverchair compared to the grunge rock of the day seemed...light.

Old Skull compared to their elders in punk bands came across as...cute.

Black Tide, skilled at playing thrash metal though they are, still sound a bit youngish compared to even early Metallica, Megadeth, Anthrax, Testament and Metal Church...but they show lots of promise.

Oh yeah...and those high-pitched squeaky voices bug the hell out of me.

Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with high notes in and of themselves- I love Ian Gillen's howl on "Child In Time" or Chris Isaak's sweet wail in "Wicked Game"- its that in the voices in the teen's music has no relief...no contrast. Their voices- and the music written to support them- is usually heavily shifted to the trebel end of things, except for the rhythm section.

Gillen and Isaac typically cover a few octaves when they sing. Even the great Michael Jackson couldn't do that until his vocal chords matured.
 
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I do not dislike Justin Bieber. I dislike Bierbermania. In fact, I admire Bieber for having had the initiate and werewithal to promote himself via YouTube.

The Jonas Brothers? I know virtually nothing about them, other than the vague irrational feeling that I should dislike them.

Miley Cyrus... Ugh... I do not dislike her music or anything, but from the first day I have always disliked her because it felt like her road to stardom was just a rehash of Hilary Duff w/ Lizzie McGuire. That and her Dad is who he is (though I did not have as solid an opinion on that until I saw him in the Spy Next Door... double ugh...). I just have the feeling we will soon be sticking her in the same bin we file away Lindsay Lohan in our minds.
 

It seems that we must agree to disagree then. I don't think any of those arguments hold water, they're all arbitrary measures of why what you like is better than what they like. In my opinion, obviously.
 

Hmm, I don't hate Miley Cyrus, I just think that her voice has to mature a bit.

She can sustain, and has some, but not enough, bottom. Her breath needs work, but she can hit a note consistently through most of her range, faltering a trifle on the lower and upper registers.

The Auld Grump, now Queen Latifah... I hate most of her music, but the girl has bottom! I love the Dana Owens album.

*EDIT* I never heard of most of the bands in the original post, and wouldn't know the Jonas Brothers if I saw them on the street.
 

As the father of a 10 year old girl, I am happy that my daughter can't stand Justin Beiber. "It sounds like a girl singer, and not a very good one," is what she told me. She's OK about the Jonas Brothers, but has not spent any of her allowance on iTunes buying their music. She's still a bit young for the crazy teen girl stage, but I am encouraged so far that she might avoid it.

Her tastes have so far run towards Taylor Swift, Lady GaGa and David Archuleta; music that does not make me want to poke out my eardrums (most of it is on my iPod as well).
 

I think there are two very different things being discussed here, tween music and teen music, and they are usually very different things. Tweens (*aprox. 12 and under) usually like the simpler, cleaner, watered down, poppy, happy, kid-stuff music. However, 13 and up (*aprox.) is where kids really start exploring who they are. Where they start developing and molding their own identity. A big part of that for many kids is music. At this point, kids aren't necessarily looking for something specifically simpler or watered down, their usually just looking for music that lyrically speaks about what they are going through, and musically just sounds different. That may take the form of a structurally "simpler" music, but can just as likely be the opposite. From generation to generation though, simpler has not been a constant. Hell, when I hit that stage, my music of choice was prog rock (Asia, Yes, old and new Genesis, Pink Floyd, etc., and Christian Rock like Petra), as compared to my parents 50's and 60's pop (their high school music) and Disco (their young adult music). I definitely would not call my choice of music to be "simpler" compared to my parents.:erm:

Even though there is, to a certain extent, a commonality of artists and styles for a generation, every kid is different. Also, the artists talked about in the OP (Justin Bieber, the Jonas Brothers, and Miley Cyrus) are much more Tween music than Teen music. However, Miley Cyrus's current music is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. She has definitely reached a stage where she is attempting to forge her own identity. Whether you like her new music or not, listen to the lyrics and you'll understand exactly what I'm trying to say. She's definitely trying to break out of her "Tween" mold and explore the person and artist She wants to be.

Teens want to differentiate themselves from other generations. They want to seperate themselves from younger "kids" music and show to the world and themselves they are "growing up". And they want to seperate themselves from older or "adult" music and show the world they are individuals with their own unique identities.

I believe it's why the music "the kids are listening to" will always be different from and ridiculed/criticized by (some) older people. That is unless we understand and simply accept the differences and the reasons for them.

Style and level of complexity is most definitely variable from generation to generation. Finding new things to do with music though, is becoming harder and harder. It seems like it's all been done before.;) I think this is one reason why the "recycled" criticism seems so prevalent also. I however think that music continues to evolve and change. When we are 80 years old, the "current" music of the time may likely seem very alien to us. Question is though, will we be as vehement and non-understanding as previous generations have?



(*What age this happens at, and to what extent, can be very different for each kid and has as much of a societal/cultural factor as it does a biological age factor.)
 
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As the father of a 10 year old girl, I am happy that my daughter can't stand Justin Beiber. "It sounds like a girl singer, and not a very good one," is what she told me. She's OK about the Jonas Brothers, but has not spent any of her allowance on iTunes buying their music. She's still a bit young for the crazy teen girl stage, but I am encouraged so far that she might avoid it.

Her tastes have so far run towards Taylor Swift, Lady GaGa and David Archuleta; music that does not make me want to poke out my eardrums (most of it is on my iPod as well).


One of my 11 year old nieces listens to Lady Gaga, Shania Twain, and Blondie oddly enough. Her mother (a cousin) listens to stuff like Blondie, Madonna, INXS, Soundgarden, etc ... kinda obsessively.
 

It seems that we must agree to disagree then. I don't think any of those arguments hold water, they're all arbitrary measures of why what you like is better than what they like. In my opinion, obviously.

Let me put it to you this way...

Teen Idol music is actually a construct of the labels. Those who are chosen are picked precisely to be marketed as cleaned up versions of popular music. This isn't an opinion- this is what the labels actually do. The labels choose what will be sung, they choose the venues, they choose clothing and other image decisions. Venture outside of those boundaries, and you're dropped.

And the thing is, I'm absolutely NOT saying teens can't make good music. If you look at the history of rock, many legendary performers (especially guitarists) started off when they were no older than- or even years younger than- their fanbase.

When Metallica started off, they weren't old enough to drink in the bars they were playing in. James Hetfield didn't hit 21 until after the band's first album had been in stores for a while. And some of their earliest work is still on their set lists.

Point at any Teen Idol who successfully made the transition to adult musical performer, and you won't see the same kind of demand for their early work. (AFAIK, the only pre-solo era song Michael Jackson kept in his set for any length of time was "Ben".)
 

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