15 levels of Mystic Theurge
- Thread starter Herzog
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Herzog
Adventurer
Actually, yes, it does!
This would also explain the rediculous Epic MT progression.
Nevertheless, I return to one of my other points:
If a Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 is balanced, and Drd3/Wiz3/MT10 is balanced,
and assuming Drd3/Wiz3/AH10 is balanced (for sake of argument),
you could build a Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT7. Is that balanced?
If not, should there be a restriction in the rules preventing you from exploiting such stacking, such as : only one PrC per character allowed? (apart from Houseruling that, which I have noticed is done by several DM's posting here)
Herzog
This would also explain the rediculous Epic MT progression.
Nevertheless, I return to one of my other points:
If a Wiz3/Clr3/MT10 is balanced, and Drd3/Wiz3/MT10 is balanced,
and assuming Drd3/Wiz3/AH10 is balanced (for sake of argument),
you could build a Drd3/Wiz3/AH10/MT7. Is that balanced?
If not, should there be a restriction in the rules preventing you from exploiting such stacking, such as : only one PrC per character allowed? (apart from Houseruling that, which I have noticed is done by several DM's posting here)
Herzog
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Herzog said:
Personally, I think they went too far with the Epic MT. Sure, the casting is about right, but they should get WAY more Epic bonus feats. Like, close to the same number as an Epic Wizard or an Epic Cleric.
However, I don't play at Epic levels yet, so I can't pretend to have much insight there.
Herzog said:
You'd have to be Drd 4 / Wiz 3 / AH 10 (or alternately Drd 3 / Wiz 4 / AH 10 -- AH has a BAB prereq).
But anyway... Drd 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 2 / AH 10 / MT 2 is indeed not balanced -- in fact, it's very popular over at WotC's Char Opt boards.
Personally, I'd rule that the AHeiro and TNecro are variants of the MTheurge, just as the Feat Rogue and Wilderness Rogue are variants of the Rogue, or the Conjurer and the Evoker are variants of the Wizard. Thus, you can't ever take more than one, but you can still multi class and take multiple PrCs. Just not two variants of the same PrC.
Cheers, -- N
Nyeshet
First Post
What exactly does the AH get beyond dual casting in arcane and divine? I do not have the book, but so far it sounds like the AH is more or less the MT with a few extras. If that is the case, I see little wrong with expanding the MT when the alternative is to take a PrC that is in effect the MT with benefits. (And enough dual casting PrCs now exist that even if they do not grant dual casting every level, one might choose two levels of this PrC then one level of this and that PrCs to make up the difference, gaining continuous dual casting and a few minor extras anyway.)rgard said:
So, I restate, what does the AH grant beyond what is gained from the MT?
Regarding power level?
A Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 10 is between a Clr 16 and a Wiz 16.
The Wiz 16 is (arguably) the 'weaker' of the trio, while the Clr 16 is obviously the stronger of the trio. He has better hp, better bab, better armor, and just as many spells as the wizard - while also having, via Domains, some arcane spells. This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that his turning can be used to empower himself or his spells in several ways via feats.
The Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 10 lacks the bonus feats of the wizard and the turning of the cleric, but can has more spells and can choose to wear armor (taking the penalty when using wizard spells) for better protection. Also, while their turning for undead purposes is insignificant, they have the option of using divine feats to turn their turning to other uses. Their hp and bab are quite low, albeit each having a slight boost from the 3 levels as a cleric. They also lack casting power - as their equivalent caster level (for maximum level of spells, power of spells cast, and number of spells per day) is three levels beneath the other two. They make up for the latter by having two spells per day lists, and they can use two of their (precious and few) feats to at least increase the power of their spells to a more normal level.
The Wiz 16 has access to some really powerful spells, but he also has the lowest bab and hp. His bonus feats help a bit, as does the fact that requiring a high Int boosts his skill points, making it easy to fill all needed skills to maximum while also nit-picking other useful skills. The bonus feats make it easier for the wizard to make the hard choices in feat selection, as he can fall back on his bonus feats.
As it is, I think the fact that there is a three level difference between the MT progression and the Wiz / Clr classes is the only reason the Wizard is in third place here. If MT required being Clr 4 / Wiz 4 before it could be taken, then the MT would be in last place instead of the wizard - because there is no way that a Clr 4 / Wiz 4 / MT 10 is near to being equal with a Wiz 18 (let alone a Clr 18). At that point, I would say to just give the MT two more levels, because it will never really catch up with the other two classes.
All in all, I don't think it would hurt much to increase the MT to enough levels to take it all the way to 20th level - but I think if this is the case then the MT should have a different epic progression.
At 20th level, a Clr 20 will still outpace a Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 14, which will itself only just outpace the wizard (in the final level, when it too can cast 9th level spells). The Wizard will still fall behind a bit, but it will hold its own and keep the gap between it and the C/W/MT close until the 20th level.
As I mentioned above, if you increase the casting requirements such that one must be Clr 4 / Wiz 4 before being able to take the first level of MT, then this argument would be moot, as MT would not manage to break even with the Clr 20 or Wiz 20 even at 20th level (as a Clr 4 / Wiz 4 / MT 12).
If you decide to alter MT such that it has 14 levels but also has split casting levels (level 9 +1 divine only, level 10 +1 arcane only, for example), then I would all but insist that the MT get something extra to make up for this - even if only a couple bonus feats tossed in (or maybe a couple specials, such that familiar progression continues but is halved for MT levels, and Turning progression continues but is thirded for MT levels, or something like that?).
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Herzog
Adventurer
for those who do not know the AH:
Entry Requirements
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells and 2nd-level divine spells.
Special: Trackless step class feature.
Weapons and armor: same restrictions as druid, no additional gained.
Spellcasting: same as MT
Ignore Arcane Spell Failure: When casting an arcane spell, you ignore the arcane spell failure chance while wearing the types of armor that druids favor.
Continued Wild Shape progression: Your druid levels and AH levels stack for the purpose of wildshape ability. If you have NO druid levels, you do not get wildshape.
Companion Familiar: You must dismiss your familiar, and your animal companion gains 'familiar' extra's. (You add your arcane hierophant class level to your druid or ranger level for purposes of determining your animal companion’s bonus Hit Dice, natural armor adjustment, and Strength/Dexterity adjustment, and you add your arcane hierophant class level to your arcane spellcasting class level to determine the Intelligence bonus and special abilities of your animal companion from the 'familiar' table)
In addition, you gain the ability to 'channel' your spells through animals and plants ( allowing you to let certain spells originate from the location of that animal or plant instead of from you )
All in all, a pretty powerfull PrC
Herzog
Entry Requirements
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Base Attack Bonus: +4.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 8 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells and 2nd-level divine spells.
Special: Trackless step class feature.
Weapons and armor: same restrictions as druid, no additional gained.
Spellcasting: same as MT
Ignore Arcane Spell Failure: When casting an arcane spell, you ignore the arcane spell failure chance while wearing the types of armor that druids favor.
Continued Wild Shape progression: Your druid levels and AH levels stack for the purpose of wildshape ability. If you have NO druid levels, you do not get wildshape.
Companion Familiar: You must dismiss your familiar, and your animal companion gains 'familiar' extra's. (You add your arcane hierophant class level to your druid or ranger level for purposes of determining your animal companion’s bonus Hit Dice, natural armor adjustment, and Strength/Dexterity adjustment, and you add your arcane hierophant class level to your arcane spellcasting class level to determine the Intelligence bonus and special abilities of your animal companion from the 'familiar' table)
In addition, you gain the ability to 'channel' your spells through animals and plants ( allowing you to let certain spells originate from the location of that animal or plant instead of from you )
All in all, a pretty powerfull PrC
Herzog
Nyeshet
First Post
Wow !!!
Who in their right mind wouldn't take AH over MT! True, you have druidic casting instead of cleric, but you have (albeit reduced a few levels) continued wildshaping, and your animal companion more or less becomes your familiar - meaning that while no more animal companion benefits are gained (I presume), it gains some (albeit reduced / altered) familiar benefits to make up for that!
Really, a Drd 3 / Wiz 3 / AH 10 seems significantly more powerful than a Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 10 - on par with a Clr 16, certainly, and perhaps even a touch stronger!
I admit, AH I would have trouble accepting the idea of expanding into 14-15 levels - not without a greater cost somewhere or a couple split levels (one +1 divine casting only level, one +1 arcane casting level only) built into it, but I still remain more or less certain that expanding the MT is not as terrible an idea.
A Clr 20 will still be more powerful than a Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 14. And while a Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 14 will be stronger than a pure Wiz 20, it will only be by a small degree.
Who in their right mind wouldn't take AH over MT! True, you have druidic casting instead of cleric, but you have (albeit reduced a few levels) continued wildshaping, and your animal companion more or less becomes your familiar - meaning that while no more animal companion benefits are gained (I presume), it gains some (albeit reduced / altered) familiar benefits to make up for that!
Really, a Drd 3 / Wiz 3 / AH 10 seems significantly more powerful than a Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 10 - on par with a Clr 16, certainly, and perhaps even a touch stronger!
I admit, AH I would have trouble accepting the idea of expanding into 14-15 levels - not without a greater cost somewhere or a couple split levels (one +1 divine casting only level, one +1 arcane casting level only) built into it, but I still remain more or less certain that expanding the MT is not as terrible an idea.
A Clr 20 will still be more powerful than a Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 14. And while a Clr 3 / Wiz 3 / MT 14 will be stronger than a pure Wiz 20, it will only be by a small degree.
