15 Minute NPCs

[takasi]

Remember, a key thing about this post is that he was using PC rules to stat NPCs for publication, rather than using the NPC/Monster rules to put together a custom guy with those simpler rules. I suspect building NPCs using those rules will be way faster.

The PHB 2 rules are actually for NPCs, using a stat array and NPC wealth levels for equipment. What other differences are there in 3.5?

 

[The Little Raven]

The PHB 2 rules are actually for NPCs, using a stat array and NPC wealth levels for equipment. What other differences are there in 3.5?

That's a supplement. Having a book later that makes NPC creation easier doesn't change the fact that the RAW 3.5 is a lot more time consuming. RAW 4e will have creation guidelines as fast, or faster, than PHB2's.

 

[takasi]

That's a supplement. Having a book later that makes NPC creation easier doesn't change the fact that the RAW 3.5 is a lot more time consuming. RAW 4e will have creation guidelines as fast, or faster, than PHB2's.

The stats are exactly the same though, nothing is trimmed. The creation 'guidelines' are the same in both 3.5 RAW and in the PHB 2, but the PHB 2 offers suggestions and tables with generation priorities.

 

[JohnSnow]

And my characters were all 'epic' level in 4E terminology. A 7th level and 11th level character in 4th edition, from what I understand, is like making about a 4th level and 8th level character in 3.5.

Are you really saying you can't make an 8th level human wizard and a 'fiendish' (templated) 4th level gnoll warlock in under 40 minutes using 3.5? As a designer who does this every single day, and has computer programs to help him?

I find that unbelievable, personally. Especially if you're just using the PHB, DMG and MM. Am I the only one who thinks WotC's wearing no clothes on this one?

You understand incorrectly. You're making an assumption based on how they've moved a few spells around that the levels are effectively lower.

A better analogy would be that they've designed Fourth Edition so that a character of any level is about as complex to stat up as, say, a 10th-level Tome of Battle character (not counting all the fiddling you're supposed to do in 3E with skill points, synergy bonuses, magic items, and the like).

You're talking about what you can get away with, rather than how you're supposed to do it. There's a big difference. The designers, when they're making a character for an adventure, have to do the latter.

And here's why it's a benefit to you. If the system is designed so you can do it the way you're supposed to in 20 minutes, you could probably manage good enough (which takes 15-20 minutes in 3E) essentially "on the fly."

And that hasn't been true since First Edition.

 

[The Little Raven]

The stats are exactly the same though, nothing is trimmed. The creation 'guidelines' are the same in both 3.5 RAW and in the PHB 2, but the PHB 2 offers suggestions and tables with generation priorities.

It's exactly those tools in the PHB2 that make the generation of NPCs faster. Without them, they'd be far more time consuming. 4e's RAW seems to be going for a fast method of generation, so you don't need a supplement later to make it easier on you.

 

[takasi]

It's exactly those tools in the PHB2 that make the generation of NPCs faster. Without them, they'd be far more time consuming. 4e's RAW seems to be going for a fast method of generation, so you don't need a supplement later to make it easier on you.

But it's just a few pages that could easily have been in the core 3.5 DMG or PHB. I don't see how changing the way stats are generated was necessary.

 

[takasi]

You understand incorrectly. You're making an assumption based on how they've moved a few spells around that the levels are effectively lower.

So character do not get more complex as you go up in levels? Isn't that a default assumption of D&D? More feats, more talents, more spells/maneuvers, more magic items to choose from? Is all of that just going away now? Or are you the one making the assumption?

You're talking about what you can get away with, rather than how you're supposed to do it. There's a big difference. The designers, when they're making a character for an adventure, have to do the latter.

Again, not that much different. My characters only need a few minutes of quick editing. Perhaps another time I will try again, and perhaps the challenge will be more a more appropriate comparison of Mearls creation (8th level, core only, one class). I just don't have the time tonight. I'd love to see someone else take up 'the challenge'.

And here's why it's a benefit to you. If the system is designed so you can do it the way you're supposed to in 20 minutes, you could probably manage good enough (which takes 15-20 minutes in 3E) essentially "on the fly."

Isn't it possible that they're just making 'the way you're supposed to' the equivelent of my 3.5 'good enough'? And the stuff you say will be 'on the fly' isn't really a stat block at all but just fudging numbers?

 

[The Little Raven]

But it's just a few pages that could easily have been in the core 3.5 DMG or PHB. I don't see how changing the way stats are generated was necessary.

Because NPCs honestly don't need PC-based rules if they're simply an encounter or a background character. You don't need to stat out the blacksmith that sells them weapons, nor the mayor that gives them some quests. If they fight them, you need stats, but you don't need to use PC-based rules for that when the monster-based rules are faster, easier, and balanced to present the proper challenge at the appropriate level.

Making me spend more time than my entire pool of players combined, simply on NPC creation alone, detracts from all the other stuff I have to do as a DM. Giving me some standardized traits based on "monster role" and the ability to plugin some extra stuff if I want saves me tons of time compared to having to tally up all the skill points, make sure feats are spent right, and the guy has enough magic items (or arbitrary bonuses) to be a threat.

Instead of doing all that number crunching, or copying things from a chart, or navigating through huge stat blocks, I can use the smaller, cleaner, and faster stuff they're including in 4e.

 

[WhatGravitas]

I'd like to point out that the designers have to make publishable stats all the time. It's their job. So of course they're going to want something that makes their job easier. But how is that better for me? How does making it easier for them make it easier for me?

Because if the designers can do it faster, you can perhaps do it faster as well. If they're eliminating the excessive cross-referencing (which you skipped by ignoring synergy bonuses, and other minor stuff like that), you'll be producing stats faster as well.

And since mearls has said that the improvements are in the DMG, that probably means that they've implemented some of the tables and ideas as well, isn't that a good thing?

And I'm not that fast when it comes to making NPCs, but I showed what I, a mere amateur DM with a job and kids, can do in less than half an hour.

Sure. But a designer has a higher mark - he must also produce an interesting NPC, that still feels organic to cater to more than one game style. It must fit the adventure. It must be as error free as possible. And has to be flexible enough to react to different party compositions.

I daresay that is an great equalizer for their advantage in being not an amateur.

Additionally, IIRC, Monte once said, it's actually worse for a designer to keep track of the rules, as he has seen many iterations and various stage, making it harder to remember which one was the final one.

But still - you needed half an hour, if the new method produces two classed, templated monsters in 40 minutes, I still consider that an improvement, EVEN if it's only 10 minutes per NPC.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Takasi,

It sounds like you can do an NPC suitable for your home game in 15 minutes, and would be able to make him publishable in an hour.

What if ,under 4E, you could do one quickly in 5 minutes, and make one suitable for publication in 15?

Wouldn't that make it significantly easier to prep for games?

That's what I am hoping for in 4th edition.

Ken