15 Minute NPCs

[takasi]

So, what you're saying is that the tables make excellent NPCs when the goal is to make NPCs based on the tables?

Yes. The goal is to use a ruleset that defines the world. Fate determines the location of NPCs, their motivations, their strengths, their weaknesses, their goals, etc. NPCs are not tailored for the purpose of climactic combat or to please the theme of the story. They just are what they are, generated with the goal of less bias and more variety in combat abilities (even if they aren't always optimal).

 

[BryonD]

If I'm going to take the time to stat out someone, I want it to be memorable, mechanically. I want the NPC to do something that I haven't done before. Whether that means using PrCs, spells, or whatnot that I haven't used before, it takes time to look through books to design. Athux (PCs fight him next Saturday!) aint' just another NPC to rush through, he's an integral part of the adventure and needs a stat block that is as unique as he is.

Personally I also try to make a unique magic item for every major NPC enemy the PCs will be facing. I think it adds a bit of personal touch to the encounter, especially if it stands out. Something to keep the PCs guessing.

What evidence is there that the quick npcs in 4E will achieve this standard?

I can crank out decent npcs in 15 minutes. But is I make an Athux for my game I'm going to want him to be just as unique as you have described. The stack of 3E books I sometimes flip through increase my ability to achieve that desire. I can make great npcs with only the PH and DMG, but I can do even better with all my splats at hand. I'd expect the same must be true for 4E. It would certainly be vastly unfair to compare the range of characters avaialble in core 4E to everything WotC has published for 3X to date. But it is equally unfair to compare build times on the same standards.

I certainly think that "looking through books" is a completely unfair standard. Right now 4E comments are being based on the PH and maybe a little use of the DMG. Wait five years and there will be a stack of 4e books available.

If 4E npcs are quicker to build, but the trade-off is less freedom to build any unique challenge you can dream up, then that will be a very raw deal to me.

I'm am very willing to concede that for the bulk of npcs that are used, there are avenues that could be used to significantly speed up generation. But these are not the unique types that you are talking about.

To me the ideal world would be shortcuts in place for standard npcs. Not just mooks, but anything you want. If you are fine with the master boss of the campaign being standard, then cool, here he is in 15 minutes. That would be a very good thing.
But if I want to build an Athux and I want to put every bit of my imagination into making him unique and memorable, then the tools better be there for me to filter through options and spend the time modeling exactly what I want.
I don't believe for a second that any system out there allows for building the top tier npcs that I like to use in my game in under 30 minutes.

But if 4E lets me dive in and spend an hour building Athux (at least 5 years from now when there is a stack of books ) and also gives me the ability to crank out any number of individual commanders, servants, warriors, etc... all serving Athus in 5 min each, then that would be an improvement.

 

[JohnSnow]

All of the decisions are made, that's the important part. The rest is in editing. You can very easily fix this stat block without having to come back to me and ask "what exactly did you want to do?" Lower the skills a little for cross class, factor in the +2 from the ring of protection. I put my pencil down at the end of 30 minutes, and if I'd had a few more he'd be polished and ready to go.

Making all the decisions is NOT the important part. That's the easy part. Making them make sense - that's important. Making them work together so the character is viable is also important.

The title of this thread "15-minute NPCs" is yours, isn't it? And yet, you CAN'T make a publication-ready 3E character in 15 minutes, despite your bragging. If anything, you've proved the opposite. You took twice that time and you still didn't pull it off.

I can handwave together a functional NPC too. But that's not "building one by the Third Edition Rules." It's a slap-dash job at best.

Mike Mearls was talking about making a polished, error-free and publication-ready 11th-level wizard (with a template, I might add) in about 20 minutes. And he's using nothing but tools actually presented in the first 3 rulebooks. You haven't even come close to that standard. And you're using tools (from PHB2) that weren't part of Third Edition until late (and which were no doubt derived from 4E development).

There's really no comparison at all.

 

[Vayden]

Okay, leaving aside the debate over whether or not tables are organic, I think the main point this thread has proved is that A) everyones play-styles and requirements for NPCs differ and B) you can't make a custom NPC by the rules in 3.5 in under 30 minutes.

I think this is a minor semantic point that's been missed - Tak, you've made good NPCs - I'd probably downgrade their CR by 2 or 3 for my group because they're all power-gamers, but they're perfectly serviceable, useable NPCs who I would be very happy to use in my game. I think I may copy and paste your Gnome into my files for future use, in fact. However, by the rules of 3.5, those are incorrectly made NPCs, and any equivalent CR PC would eat them for lunch. Yes, you can polish them up, and the flaws are minor, but according the rules and inherent philosophy of 3.5, they're wrong. You've overcome that thinking, which is good, and probably makes your DMing and gaming much easier and more fun.

I think we've all learned by this point that you have to wing things and skip a few rules in 3.5 when you're DMing. I think Mearls' underlying point was that 3.5, with its "there's one underlying ruleset for everything" approach to building monsters and NPCs, is the incorrect approach to a ruleset/DMing.

In 4E, I think we'll all get guidelines for building antagonists that encourage us not to build villains/monsters to "follow the rules" in some sort of "there is a formula for everything" sense but in the "if it's level X, and you want it to fill the artillery role, it should fit in this range here" sense.

In addition, if 4E PC generation is anything like SWSE PC generation, it'll be a lot faster, so even those of us who want to put as much effort into our villains as into our PCs will save time.

A few quick examples of how even 3.75 (SWSE) saves you time -
No need to spend skill points - you just move down the line and check off "trained" a certain number of times.
No need to organically follow the progression of ability score increases - someone who started at Wis 14 and leveled it up to 18 and someone who started at 18 and stayed there have the exact same number of force powers (or trained skills if you replace Wis with Int).
No fretting over magic items - the power of the characters comes from their level, not their equipment (probably a bit more of an issue in 4E, but less than 3.5).
Almost all of the bonuses are based on either Level or 1/2 Level - no matter whether you're making a 1st or a 18th level character, you just plug those in and you're pretty close to CR.
Easy, easy, easy multi-classing rules. I mean ridiculously easy.

I'm not saying there's a hard and fast rule for how long it does/should take someone to make an NPC - that varies by your style. I'm saying you'll get the same diversity, more reliable CR, and have an easier job of doing it, no matter what your style is.

 

[BryonD]

The title of this thread "15-minute NPCs" is yours, isn't it? And yet, you CAN'T make a publication-ready 3E character in 15 minutes, despite your bragging. If anything, you've proved the opposite. You took twice that time and you still didn't pull it off.

I can handwave together a functional NPC too. But that's not "building one by the Third Edition Rules." It's a slap-dash job at best.

I went back and looked at the OP and I don't see a word about publishing in it.
I'd say slap-dash is a radically unfair assessment of an NPC that would work 100% perfect for providing fun at the table. That is my standard. What is yours?

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

You know, this talk about paging through tons of books has made me realize something interesting.

WoTC could have made it much easier to make NPCs quickly. All they needed to do was release a Feat Compendium book and a Prestige Class Compendium book.

With those two books, the spell compendiu ,and the core books, I think my NPC creation would go a whole lot faster.

I wonder why that never happened?

Ken

 

[Lackhand]

I went back and looked at the OP and I don't see a word about publishing in it.
I'd say slap-dash is a radically unfair assessment of an NPC that would work 100% perfect for providing fun at the table. That is my standard. What is yours?

That the NPC follows the rules of the game I am currently playing.

I have no objection to running things at your table such that the character is entertaining -- indeed, I'm all for it! -- but then the rules of the game should support this activity.

So really, we're agreeing and just arguing whether it's possible now. My stance: possible now, yes. Legal under a strict definition of the rules? Not really.

 

[JohnSnow]

I went back and looked at the OP and I don't see a word about publishing in it.
I'd say slap-dash is a radically unfair assessment of an NPC that would work 100% perfect for providing fun at the table. That is my standard. What is yours?

The post references, by inference (90 minutes to create a high-level 3.5 NPC) blog posts by Rodney Thompson and Mike Mearls (there's was an earlier thread discussing that right here on ENworld).

Mike was extolling the virtues of Fourth Edition by saying that he'd statted up 2 NPCs (a 7th-level gnoll warlock, and an 11th-level human wizard) for publication in 40 minutes.

takasi (and others) essentially responded with "what's the big deal about that? I do it all the time." takasi started this thread in response, claiming that he can't imagine why it was taking the WotC guys so long to come up with an NPC.

To which many people have basically answered: It isn't doing it that takes time, it's doing it right. With "right" in this case meaning "actually following all the rules of Third Edition."

And takasi's attempts to prove us wrong has only underlined the point that his method produces NPCs that are (arguably) functional, but are certainly not correct.

 

[takasi]

The post references, by inference (90 minutes to create a high-level 3.5 NPC) blog posts by Rodney Thompson and Mike Mearls (there's was an earlier thread discussing that right here on ENworld).

Mike was extolling the virtues of Fourth Edition by saying that he'd statted up 2 NPCs (a 7th-level gnoll warlock, and an 11th-level human wizard) for publication in 40 minutes.

takasi (and others) essentially responded with "what's the big deal about that? I do it all the time." takasi started this thread in response, claiming that he can't imagine why it was taking the WotC guys so long to come up with an NPC.

To which many people have basically answered: It isn't doing it that takes time, it's doing it right. With "right" in this case meaning "actually following all the rules of Third Edition."

And takasi's attempts to prove us wrong has only underlined the point that his method produces NPCs that are (arguably) functional, but are certainly not correct.

I'd like to point out that the designers have to make publishable stats all the time. It's their job. So of course they're going to want something that makes their job easier. But how is that better for me? How does making it easier for them make it easier for me?

And I'm not that fast when it comes to making NPCs, but I showed what I, a mere amateur DM with a job and kids, can do in less than half an hour.

And my characters were all 'epic' level in 4E terminology. A 7th level and 11th level character in 4th edition, from what I understand, is like making about a 4th level and 8th level character in 3.5.

Are you really saying you can't make an 8th level human wizard and a 'fiendish' (templated) 4th level gnoll warlock in under 40 minutes using 3.5? As a designer who does this every single day, and has computer programs to help him?

I find that unbelievable, personally. Especially if you're just using the PHB, DMG and MM. Am I the only one who thinks WotC's wearing no clothes on this one?

 

[The Little Raven]

And takasi's attempts to prove us wrong has only underlined the point that his method produces NPCs that are (arguably) functional, but are certainly not correct.

Or suitable for publication.

Remember, a key thing about this post is that he was using PC rules to stat NPCs for publication, rather than using the NPC/Monster rules to put together a custom guy with those simpler rules. I suspect building NPCs using those rules will be way faster.