15 Minute Workday Myth?

[Psion]

Just what is the rest of the party doing while the rogue is going over every nook and cranny in a dungeon?

If they are smart, setting a guard at the door, waiting for wandering monsters/alerted guards/etc.

 

[Rechan]

And even as a DM, I don't do it all the time, I just make players question their time management, and I try to add a sense of wonder to every room.

Except that you said you make sure the room they charge into is a dead end, so that to go forward they need to find the secret door. That's not wonder, that's just curtailing them to behave the way you want.

If the mansion is big enough, I see no problem with it if the party is stealthy and rubs out a few people.

And I don't see it possible.

But yeah, if they're only supposed to be there for 15 minutes, and that's the DM's goal, then yeah, go for it. I'm just saying that if you want to run a dungeon crawl and are complaining that PCs are rushing through it in an unreasonable amount of time you should consider making the PCs more cautious.

You were the one complaining about going through a dungeon in 15 minutes. Plowing through a dungeon isn't the problem right now - it's hitting one or two encounters, then resting.

Now wait a minute, when did I become the anti-4E guy? I am looking forward to 4E, honestly!

I wasn't saying that you had a problem with grapple or 4e - but using it as an example of "If it's not a problem for me, it's not broke, don't fix it" that you seem to be saying.

So no sneaky traps? Secret doors? Hidden treasure? I find that hard to believe. I like the obvious traps too, but I hope they have both.

They havn't said anything about them.

 

[takasi]

Except that you said you make sure the room they charge into is a dead end, so that to go forward they need to find the secret door. That's not wonder, that's just curtailing them to behave the way you want.

Like I said, it only has to happen once or twice in the history of a campaign to remind players that it can happen. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

And I don't see it possible.

Well not if you're wearing full plate I guess. But if a party wants to sneak around a mansion, take out a few servants and sneak around from room to room looking for valuables, you don't think in a fantasy world like D&D you can have an all night robbery?

You were the one complaining about going through a dungeon in 15 minutes. Plowing through a dungeon isn't the problem right now - it's hitting one or two encounters, then resting.

I'm saying there's nothing wrong with hitting one or two encounters in a day and then resting, because the DM should factor in search times to make a standard delve more realistic. By the RAW, if characters do a thorough search you're more likely going to want to rest from searching (due to forced march rules, which should apply to exploration) than from running out of resources in day.

I wasn't saying that you had a problem with grapple or 4e - but using it as an example of "If it's not a problem for me, it's not broke, don't fix it" that you seem to be saying.

I'm saying it shouldn't be a problem under the current rules. For me or for anyone. Not the problem of "what do we do for 23 hours and 45 minutes", at least. Search! Loot! You're adventurers for cryin' out loud!

They havn't said anything about them.

We'll have to wait and see then. Hopefully no news is good news.

 

[Rechan]

Like I said, it only has to happen once or twice in the history of a campaign to remind players that it can happen. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

No, I didn't know it was once or twice in a campaign. I got the impression that was the "if PC does x, I do Y" general practice.

Well not if you're wearing full plate I guess. But if a party wants to sneak around a mansion, take out a few servants and sneak around from room to room looking for valuables, you don't think in a fantasy world like D&D you can have an all night robbery?

No, I do not.

I'm saying there's nothing wrong with hitting one or two encounters in a day and then resting, because the DM should factor in search times to make a standard delve more realistic.

Whether you're getting hit with two encounters and then rest, or two encounters and then eight hours of searching followed by rest, you're still hitting two encounters and resting.

The problem is "The mage is out of spells, so we stop moving forward". Even if the PCs spend the rest of the day searching the area they've been, they're not moving forward is the point.

Hell, the mage could sit on a bench for 8 hours while everyone else ransacks the place, and that could qualify as "rest" for him.

I'm saying it shouldn't be a problem under the current rules. For me or for anyone. Not the problem of "what do we do for 23 hours and 45 minutes", at least. Search! Loot! You're adventurers for cryin' out loud!

So you're saying everyone should play your way so it isn't a problem?

What happens if you're in the wilderness, the Plane of Shadow, behind enemy lines, or any number of "Dangerous locations that don't have treasure stuffed into every tree stump for searchin'"?

The goblin cave or the giants' cave isn't going to be a trapathon or have gems stuffed up frog butts. The goodies are probably going to be on the Chief's person, to prevent the other guys from taking them.

 

[takasi]

No, I do not.

Why not? What if what they're looking for is hidden? Do they go in, look briefly and leave? Or what if they need to assassinate someone? You don't think they can break into a mansion, sneak around, find a good hiding place and use magic to get the job done? Are you saying they can't even try?

Whether you're getting hit with two encounters and then rest, or two encounters and then eight hours of searching followed by rest, you're still hitting two encounters and resting.

But that's not all they do. That's the difference. The idea presented is that it's a 15 minute "workday". They kill the baddies, grab their loot and rest for 23 hours and 45 minutes. That doesn't have to be the case. Searching is part of the "workday" and it takes time.

Hell, the mage could sit on a bench for 8 hours while everyone else ransacks the place, and that could qualify as "rest" for him.

I agree. But it's a team sport.

So you're saying everyone should play your way so it isn't a problem?

I'm saying it's only a problem if you make it one.

What happens if you're in the wilderness, the Plane of Shadow, behind enemy lines, or any number of "Dangerous locations that don't have treasure stuffed into every tree stump for searchin'"?

The goblin cave or the giants' cave isn't going to be a trapathon or have gems stuffed up frog butts.

You don't know unless you check. At least as a rogue that's what I do.

 

[Cbas_10]

I'll admit I have run a 15 minute workday in D&D. However, it was the result of playstyle.

In the past few years, however, I've encouraged players to take 20 on every single five foot square they find. It takes 2 minutes per square to do this. The average dungeon I run players through has about 500 squares. They normally rest once per dungeon.

How do I encourage them? Traps. Secret doors. Treasure. I hide them all over the place and in squares that wouldn't be obvious.

A side effect is that this makes players very cautious on when to use spells that last a minute, 10 minutes or an hour per level. They have to look at the size of the room and gauge how long it's going to take. And if they barrel into another room because the "clock is ticking" on a buff, that's usually when a trap that required taking 20 to find it goes off (and usually on the guy who didn't follow the rogue's footsteps exactly) or the party runs into a dead end and has to backtrack to find a secret door.

In 4th edition, I hope they take into account the amount of time it should take to thoroughly check for traps. For me that's what normally makes a party rest, not daily resources.

What about you?

Fortunately, I've never lived through the horror of a 15-minute Adventuring Day...or more accurately, the horror of a game that produces 15-minute adventuring days as a side effect of how the game is set up. Traps would not at all enter into the solution of this problem if it popped up in one of my games. Not that traps are bad...just not my style. Avoiding the 15 minute-day really needs cooperation and synergy between the DM and players.

First, it really is up to the DM to challenge the PCs capture the interest of the players without sapping away all of their resources every other fight. How fun is this, anyway: Players will pretty much know that things will be a war of attrition every encounter or so. "Buff up, get in formation, ..." Bleh. Vary the encounters...some can be way below a CR appropriate for their level and some a bit above and some might be strong enough to flee from and devise a better strategy for later. All depending on the storyline.

In my opinion and experience, the best way for the players to contribute to avoiding the 15 minute adventuring day is to avoid One-Trick Ponies. Or super specialized characters. Or mmo-style optimal builds. Rogues that are worthless when they can't sneak attack...wizards that are worthless when they can't use magic...warriors that feel naked without a specific type of weapon because 11 of their 13 feats are all centered on greatswords...all, in my experience are Boredom Disasters. They are all-or-nothing characters that either dominate the field when they can use their talent or are totally screwed when that aspect is denied. It is not the fault of character builds or rules...rather player intentions.

As for resting...not everything has to be defined by rules. If one group or another has to have everything defined...that's cool for you, but not for us.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Someone asked what the characters would do when the Rogue is taking 20 to search the whole dungeon.
Aid another. Sure, without Trap Finding, it doesn't help finding traps (I assume, and that's how we play it), but Secret Doors and Hidden Treasures are still things you can find.

But that said, we usually don't search a dungeon so thourughly if we haven't cleared it yet. The room we have just cleared, maybe. But usually, it's not that much room.
So, the 15 minute workday is an exaggeration then, but close enough to the truth.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'll admit I have run a 15 minute workday in D&D. However, it was the result of playstyle.

In the past few years, however, I've encouraged players to take 20 on every single five foot square they find.

I think that is a cure much worse than the disease.

Remember that taking 20 doesn't mean the table sits around for 2 minutes of gametime.

Obviously not, but I still think that's terribly boring to the point of driving PCs (not players) insane. It isn't legal by the rules, either. Taking 20 assumes that nothing bad can happen to the PC making the skill checks, but rolling a natural 1 while searching for a trap means the rogue didn't see the trap and set it off. In this way of playing, the PCs are setting off every trap in the dungeon!

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

It isn't legal by the rules, either. Taking 20 assumes that nothing bad can happen to the PC making the skill checks, but rolling a natural 1 while searching for a trap means the rogue didn't see the trap and set it off. In this way of playing, the PCs are setting off every trap in the dungeon!

FYI, the FAQ disagrees with you.

 

[Gundark]

Truthfully, we never saw the "15 minute workday" because our groups always measured our firepower against whatever it was we were fighting. We didn't go "all out back-to-the-wall" unless the enemy proved that's what we needed to do. Miss on a roll of 19? Time to break out the spells. Sucked up a magic missile like it was mother's milk? Time to break out the Assay Spell resistance. Fireball made it wince? Time for the empowered Force Orb. If we did have an exceptional circumstance that mandated we use all we had, then we took the rest and moved on. Only in situations where we had a time limit did it make for lots of soul-searching about casting a spell.

This style of play wouldn't have worked in the Age of Worms. At the start the party mage did just what you described. Near the end of the path it became necessary to "go all out", which required more resting.