15 Minute Workday Myth?

[cignus_pfaccari]

Even +22 is not good enough to take 10 in many cases.

No, but it's often good enough. And you can, in fact, fail once in a while and not get creamed.

I'm looking at Fortress of the Yuan-Ti right now. For 7th level characters. Search DC 24, 30, 31. Even the 24 is tough to take 10 on at 7th level.

Hrm...I have to say, that DC 31 is a bit high for 7th level.

Not having my books here at the office, I can't say what the ones I saw were, but I really don't recall things being that high at that level. I could *usually* find a trap with a decent roll, which was all that really mattered.

Brad

 

[takasi]

In your games, maybe.

Well now you've heard of it.

 

[Rechan]

Then you run into problems like Encounter Traps, presented in Dungeonscape/Secrets of Xen'Drik. The Entire Room is a trap that is in effect for multiple rounds (like a 5-round volley of darts all along one wall), and the only way to disable it is to get across the room - through whatever nasty effect the trap is putting out.

The designers have said that they're using these as the basis for traps in 4e.

 

[takasi]

How do you, the player, know for a fact there's something in the jar in the first place? You don't.

Exactly, that's why I want to take 20.

And you can't just take 20 in every square, because eventually a member of the staff is going to come across you, set off an alarm, and the guards are going to be on your ass pretty soon.

I can do whatever I want! I'll take 20 and if the staff comes in I'll kill it and take its stuff. Same with the guards. And if they kill me I play another character that will eventually kill it and take its stuff.

(The point I'm making here isn't that you can't do the smash and grab. It's that you can do the all day crawl. They myth is that the all day crawl doesn't exist because of the run into a few encounters, run out of resources then sit on your butt for 23 hours and 45 minutes.)

 

[takasi]

No, but it's often good enough. And you can, in fact, fail once in a while and not get creamed.

Certainly you can roll for it. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm just saying a DM (and the rules) can tempt players into taking 20 in order to make time management a factor when the myth denies it.

 

[Rechan]

Exactly, that's why I want to take 20.

And as a DM, I'd put you over a barrel for wasting time on a damn cookie jar. Just like You would put me over a barrel for not doing it.

I can do whatever I want! I'll take 20 and if the staff comes in I'll kill it and take its stuff. Same with the guards. And if they kill me I play another character that will eventually kill it and take its stuff.

I don't need to waste time looking for treasure. I'll go straight to the bad guy's bedroom and kill him, and take his stuff. Screw the stuff hidden in the toilet. If I just don't have enough money for my level's worth, then eventually I'll die, and I can make a character whose wealth is appropriate for my level!

(The point I'm making here isn't that you can't do the smash and grab. It's that you can do the all day crawl. They myth is that the all day crawl doesn't exist because of the run into a few encounters, run out of resources then sit on your butt for 23 hours and 45 minutes.)

1) It's not a myth when it exists in certain people's games.

2) It's not applicable in your game if the PCs aren't expending their resources in the first place, whether it's spent wandering around or not fighting monsters. If they HAVE to spend their resources because the maid walked in, then they'll rest.

I also get the impression from your argument that the 15 minute work day isn't real because it doesn't apply to your game and that anyone who doesn't play your way is just letting it happen and thus it's wrong.

 

[takasi]

And as a DM, I'd put you over a barrel for wasting time on a damn cookie jar. Just like You would put me over a barrel for not doing it.

I wouldn't put you over a barrel. You'd just be missing out on cookies.

I don't need to waste time looking for treasure. I'll go straight to the bad guy's bedroom and kill him, and take his stuff. Screw the stuff hidden in the toilet. If I just don't have enough money for my level's worth, then eventually I'll die, and I can make a character whose wealth is appropriate for my level!

The bad guy is polymorphed and hiding as a mouse inside the cookie jar, waiting for you to leave the room.

1) It's not a myth when it exists in certain people's games.

Excuse me, the myth that it's a problem inherent to the rules of D&D. And that it happens a lot, which is not my experience.

2) It's not applicable in your game if the PCs aren't expending their resources in the first place, whether it's spent wandering around or not fighting monsters. If they HAVE to spend their resources because the maid walked in, then they'll rest.

They're not resting, they're searching, which takes time. If the maid walked in, in that scenario, you kill her. You're out of guns. What do you do? Rest? Well, you have plenty of time to do other things, like search.

I also get the impression from your argument that the 15 minute work day isn't real because it doesn't apply to your game and that anyone who doesn't play your way is just letting it happen and thus it's wrong.

I think people overlook search, as is evident by your responses. Is it wrong? No, but it also isn't causing a problem that needs to be fixed, IMO. Unless they change how traps and secret doors and searching in general works, which I'm hoping they don't. If they do, no biggie either, I just hope they take that into consideration.

 

[roguerouge]

Uhh... if I was the one in a highly dangerous environment filled with monsters and deadly traps, you can be darn certain that I'd be inching along unless there was a real good reason not to be inching along. I would hope that the default approach would be extreme caution unless the demands of stealth or safety demanded otherwise.

 

[Rechan]

I wouldn't put you over a barrel.

You don't call this putting PCs over a barrel?

And if they barrel into another room because the "clock is ticking" on a buff, that's usually when a trap that required taking 20 to find it goes off (and usually on the guy who didn't follow the rogue's footsteps exactly) or the party runs into a dead end and has to backtrack to find a secret door.

If they don't play your way, they get hit with a trap, or you move the map around so they don't find the way forward.

Excuse me, the myth that it's a problem inherent to the rules of D&D. And that it happens a lot, which is not my experience.

Just because it doesn't happen a lot in your experience doesn't mean it isn't a problem that happens a lot.

They're not resting, they're searching, which takes time. If the maid walked in, in that scenario, you kill her. You're out of guns. What do you do? Rest? Well, you have plenty of time to do other things, like search.

And while you kill her she's going to start shrieking her head off.

I don't see how you can be completely blaize about walking into someone's house and spending twelve hours searching the premises without it breaking your suspension of disbelief, but defeating a dungeon in 15 minutes isn't okay.

I think people overlook search, as is evident by your responses. Is it wrong? No, but it also isn't causing a problem that needs to be fixed, IMO.

It isn't a problem for you. If you've never used Grappling rules, then hey, why fix grapple - you've never had a problem with it.

Unless they change how traps and secret doors and searching in general works, which I'm hoping they don't.

As I said about encounter traps up the thread, they are. From the impression I've got, D&D traps in 4e will be real huge deals - they're obvious, gaudy, and they are treated as monsters because they're there for the whole combat, rather than a speedbump. To use an example, a trap would be like a hallway that has pistons continually pumping down from the ceiling, always in motion, and you have to destroy them/move past them to flick the off switch.

 

[takasi]

You don't call this putting PCs over a barrel?

Well this is how I would do it as a player too. If there's no reason to avoid caution, then why avoid it?

And even as a DM, I don't do it all the time, I just make players question their time management, and I try to add a sense of wonder to every room.

Just because it doesn't happen a lot in your experience doesn't mean it isn't a problem that happens a lot.

Well that's the purpose of this thread, with question mark in the subject. And even that won't prove much, but it garnered interesting dialogue (to me anyways).

And while you kill her she's going to start shrieking her head off.

She's going to shriek her head off anyway. If we don't get the silence off, we kill the people she alarmed. If we were trying to be stealthy, we would have been hiding and listening for her approach to begin with and she wouldn't have seen or heard us.

I don't see how you can be completely blaize about walking into someone's house and spending twelve hours searching the premises without it breaking your suspension of disbelief, but defeating a dungeon in 15 minutes isn't okay.

If the mansion is big enough, I see no problem with it if the party is stealthy and rubs out a few people.

But yeah, if they're only supposed to be there for 15 minutes, and that's the DM's goal, then yeah, go for it. I'm just saying that if you want to run a dungeon crawl and are complaining that PCs are rushing through it in an unreasonable amount of time you should consider making the PCs more cautious.

It isn't a problem for you. If you've never used Grappling rules, then hey, why fix grapple - you've never had a problem with it.

I actually love the current grapple rules, personally.

Now wait a minute, when did I become the anti-4E guy? I am looking forward to 4E, honestly!

(Really!)

As I said about encounter traps up the thread, they are. From the impression I've got, D&D traps in 4e will be real huge deals - they're obvious, gaudy, and they are treated as monsters because they're there for the whole combat, rather than a speedbump. To use an example, a trap would be like a hallway that has pistons continually pumping down from the ceiling, always in motion, and you have to destroy them/move past them to flick the off switch.

So no sneaky traps? Secret doors? Hidden treasure? I find that hard to believe. I like the obvious traps too, but I hope they have both.