15 Minute Workday Myth?

[takasi]

From my most recent play experience:

"I'm going to use my Track to see which is the most traveled area." Roll.
"I'm going to listen at this door." Roll.
"I'm going to now search the door for traps."
"Okay everyone, we're going to open the door, get into positions."

When you do this to every hall you come to, It Gets Tiresome.

We have a standard delving procedure and it's in our campaign rules. Unless otherwise noted, you just assume the rogue (or whoever is the point man) is doing this. The DM makes rolls, like listen (which can be simplified by taking 10) when the monsters are actually there. It doesn't get tiresome for us because it's a background thing.

 

[Irda Ranger]

This. I mean, what badguy puts traps on his toilet when he stumbles in in the middle of the night and ends up killing himself?

Awesome. Thank you for the excellent excuse for why there's a trapped and haunted mansion just outside of town.

"Old gnome Kizgang was an absolute nutter about thieves; always going on about how they would steal his money if they could. Well, he had been a thief (and wizard) himself in his day, so he's know. But anyway, he made that house into a fortress - a veritable death trap for the odd guest. The last person to see him alive was Madam Tulipano. She almost got her head taken off by a guillotine trap while over for a cup of tea. But one day Kizgang didn't come down to pick up the milk, and that was thirty odd years ago now. No one around here has bothered to go in and find out what happened to him. He's probably still in there. His bones anyway.

"Yup, every now and then we here a bang or thud as a rat or something sets off a trap, but the place is still right dangerous. I sold him about three barrels of black-powder myself, enough to bring the whole building down twice over, so if it's still dry, it's still live."

 

[Rechan]

Awesome. Thank you for the excellent excuse for why there's a trapped and haunted mansion just outside of town.

In the Dragon Magazine Compendium that Paizo put out, there's a Trap Haunt. Basically a ghost that can only be exercised by destroying the trap that killed it; it can auto-reset the trap, etc etc.

Although if you went the regular ghost route, it could drift through the house resetting his traps (and attacking people with telekinesis in the middle of a boobytrapped room, forcing them to flee or traverse the traps).

Really, the most clever trapsmith won't make an insidious trap hidden in an out of the way place. He'll make a trap that is underneath a really easy trap, and disarming the really easy trap arms the second one. (For instance, disabling the poison needle trap on the lock of the chest arms the guillotine trap built into the lid of the chest so it snaps down on the hands of whoever opens and starts rifling through it).

 

[takasi]

Really, the most clever trapsmith won't make an insidious trap hidden in an out of the way place.

Why not? He would want to put treasure or secret doors in hidden, out of the way places. Wouldn't he want to put traps on them?

 

[Rechan]

Why not? He would want to put treasure or secret doors in hidden, out of the way places. Wouldn't he want to put traps on them?

I just told you what the most clever would do, imo. Rigging the linen closet to blow is going to get the guy not paying attention. But doubletrapping something is going to get the guy who's sharp but not the sharpest. And the problem with trapping out-of-the-way places is if you're dealing with some special forces guys who aren't going to wander around your house looking into the linen closet. Wasting the money on that CR 10 trap in the out of the way room doesn't help you when they just walk past it to your secret lair.

Your last 10 traps should have killed the people who aren't talented, but you need to do something about the ones who are, because they're the real threat.

Besides, trapping something also sends up a red flag that says 'Hey, I'm worth trapping!' If you have a gem hidden in the false bottom of a cookie jar, do you trap the cookie jar so that whoever survives the trap will suspect there's something inside worth finding, or will you just let them assume it's a cookie jar?

And trap #1 doesn't need to really be there to kill the guy. Trap #1 should set him up for trap #2 - the solvent glue attached to the inside of the secret door so that when he opens it he's stuck to it, and thus his reflex save is going to have a serious hampering.

That, and I'd sprinkle secret doors that lead into the septic tank, and copper that's just painted gold. Sometimes frustrating them is far more enjoyable than killing them outright. And if you're real good (like the False Lich in Tomb of Horrors), you can get them to take the stuff you don't care about if you fool them into thinking they've got all that's there.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

What exactly is she doing? Getting goggles of minute seeing? Sinking in valuable feats just for search? Even if she does have a +16, at 11th level most of the traps are search DC 34. She'll need to take 20 or more than likely she'll miss it.

You mentioned her Search check at 1st level is +6.

Therefore, Search +16 at 11th level is a logical development, given one skill point/level.

If her primary role is B&E, then investing in gear to aid in that is logical and expected. I certainly did with my rogue. So, a +6 bonus (+5 competence from an item, +1 from Int enhancement) puts that at +22, which succeeds a reasonable amount of time, allowing for on-the-go trapfinding.

Also, note that just because the entire dungeon is built for a party of n level, that does not mean that all the traps are of n level. The published traps I've seen go down relatively far down the CR scale compared to the rest of the adventure, so the Search DCs won't necessarily be super-high.

Brad

 

[takasi]

IBesides, trapping something also sends up a red flag that says 'Hey, I'm worth trapping!' If you have a gem hidden in the false bottom of a cookie jar, do you trap the cookie jar so that whoever survives the trap will suspect there's something inside worth finding, or will you just let them assume it's a cookie jar?

There are two things here. First you've hidden something in the cookie jar. If someone isn't going to take the time to look in the cookie jar, you've won. If they do decided to look in the cookie jar and you don't want them to win you put a trap on the jar. Sure, if they spent the time to look in the cookie jar they'll also find the trap (maybe, if they're a rogue) but at least by adding the trap they don't win by default. And in the meantime, now they are paranoid looking for traps.

If the guys are coming in for a fight then a few traps in the halls and doors slow them down. But you're putting on the traps on the good stuff in areas that are hidden and out of the way because those are the areas you don't want to guard all the time. Adventurers are usually there to steal from you, not to kill you.

And trap #1 doesn't need to really be there to kill the guy. Trap #1 should set him up for trap #2 - the solvent glue attached to the inside of the secret door so that when he opens it he's stuck to it, and thus his reflex save is going to have a serious hampering.

That, and I'd sprinkle secret doors that lead into the septic tank, and copper that's just painted gold. Sometimes frustrating them is far more enjoyable than killing them outright. And if you're real good (like the False Lich in Tomb of Horrors), you can get them to take the stuff you don't care about if you fool them into thinking they've got all that's there.

From a player's perspective, how do you use your character sheet to defeat that?

 

[Qualidar]

From a player's perspective, how do you use your character sheet to defeat that?

Which part of that quote are you talking about?

 

[takasi]

If her primary role is B&E, then investing in gear to aid in that is logical and expected. I certainly did with my rogue. So, a +6 bonus (+5 competence from an item, +1 from Int enhancement) puts that at +22, which succeeds a reasonable amount of time, allowing for on-the-go trapfinding.

Even +22 is not good enough to take 10 in many cases.

Also, note that just because the entire dungeon is built for a party of n level, that does not mean that all the traps are of n level. The published traps I've seen go down relatively far down the CR scale compared to the rest of the adventure, so the Search DCs won't necessarily be super-high.

I'm looking at Fortress of the Yuan-Ti right now. For 7th level characters. Search DC 24, 30, 31. Even the 24 is tough to take 10 on at 7th level.

As a player, I'm cautious. As a DM, I give my players reasons to be cautious. I don't have to do it often.

 

[takasi]

Which part of that quote are you talking about?

I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of the "trap within a trap" cleverness. Is one search check enough? If I take 20 do I find both? How do I avoid the second trap?