15 Minute Workday Myth?

[LEHaskell]

It's walking really slow inside a building. Not the same as walking several miles in a day.

Employees at Walmart walk 8 hours around the store when they're on shift; should that be counted as a "forced march"?

Hmmm, when I imagine heroes exploring the Lost Caverns of Doom the first image that pops to mind is NOT "Walmart employees". Seems like exploring the Caverns might be a bit more strenuous (and the bennies better )

Seriously, anyone know what rest/march schedule light infantry teams like SEALS use when moving through hostile territory? Seems like a more apt comparison.

 

[Rechan]

If the guys are coming in for a fight then a few traps in the halls and doors slow them down. But you're putting on the traps on the good stuff in areas that are hidden and out of the way because those are the areas you don't want to guard all the time. Adventurers are usually there to steal from you, not to kill you.

What? I've never seen or heard of going into a dungeon with the expressed intention of robbing it and NOT killing the inhabitants, unless it's a ruin or tomb no one expects there to be anything inside in the first place. A tomb isn't going to have bathrooms and linen closets - it's straight forward. A ruin's traps are probably going to be dead from age.

Most adventurers go to KILL things because they get XP for it, and the monsters equipment is usually better than theirs.

From a player's perspective, how do you use your character sheet to defeat that?

Well, an appraise might let you tell that the gold is fake.

As you said earlier:

No, as an enemy you want them taking 20 in every square. It gives you time to find them and plan how to remove them.

Don't just have them taking 20 every square, have them chasing their tail. And even if you die, your enemies are covered in crap in the end and are making fort saves vs. filth fever, hey, you get the last laugh.

 

[takasi]

What? I've never seen or heard of going into a dungeon with the expressed intention of robbing it and NOT killing the inhabitants, unless it's a ruin or tomb no one expects there to be anything inside in the first place. A tomb isn't going to have bathrooms and linen closets - it's straight forward. A ruin's traps are probably going to be dead from age.

Adventurers go into "dungeons" (which may or may not include linen closets and bathrooms) looking for your stuff. You're there because of your stuff. If you wanted to escape you probably could, you stay to defend your stuff. Getting killed over your stuff is a byproduct of greed, usually. That stuff may be physical things like gold or magic items, or it could be the dungeon itself as a refuge or unholy area.

Don't just have them taking 20 every square, have them chasing their tail. And even if you die, your enemies are covered in crap in the end and are making fort saves vs. filth fever, hey, you get the last laugh.

There is a running gag at my table that in every campaign I run at some point there will be something hidden in poo.

 

[Thaniel]

You what? Wear the numbers off of your dice. Or just hope that player impatience wears them down?

It's really simple. The downside of taking 20 is time. If the DM introduces no time pressure, then players not caring about time is pretty much the logical result.

Just what is the rest of the party doing while the rogue is going over every nook and cranny in a dungeon? And I mean the characters not the players. I know Taking 20 takes no real time. But it does take game time. Taking 20 on every single thing kinda breaks the immersion for me. If I'm a fighter traveling around with a party and the rogue in the party keeps searching table legs for hidden wands, I'm gonna find another party.

 

[takasi]

Just what is the rest of the party doing while the rogue is going over every nook and cranny in a dungeon? And I mean the characters not the players. I know Taking 20 takes no real time. But it does take game time. Taking 20 on every single thing kinda breaks the immersion for me. If I'm a fighter traveling around with a party and the rogue in the party keeps searching table legs for hidden wands, I'm gonna find another party.

Depends on how quiet they have to be. They're usually whispering to each other about monsters. Or stories. Or drinking. Or studying ancient books. Or practicing their swordplay. What else are they going to do if they weren't in the dungeon? It's not like they have TV or the internet. If they have to be quiet, they can always admire the (boxed text).

What are they doing for 23 hours and 45 minutes while they rest after two or three rooms worth of fighting?

 

[Rechan]

I'm trying to figure out the mechanics of the "trap within a trap" cleverness. Is one search check enough? If I take 20 do I find both? How do I avoid the second trap?

I believe, but I could be wrong, that it's presented in Traps & Treachery I or II.

The thought that comes to mind is that you have to beat the Search or disable device skill by 5 to be aware of what you just did.

There are two things here. First you've hidden something in the cookie jar. If someone isn't going to take the time to look in the cookie jar, you've won. If they do decided to look in the cookie jar and you don't want them to win you put a trap on the jar. Sure, if they spent the time to look in the cookie jar they'll also find the trap (maybe, if they're a rogue) but at least by adding the trap they don't win by default. And in the meantime, now they are paranoid looking for traps.

But the guy assumes that whoever's coming in is going to look in the cookie jar in the first place.

Lord Farfinoogin's manor isn't going to get ransacked unless someone comes in and kills Lord Farfanoogin and everyone in the building. No burglar is going to have the time to do a full take 20 on every square in his manor. So there's no reason for him to trap the cookie jar if that's where he's hiding his gems - the maids and cooks aren't going to have the search skill to pull off finding the false bottom. Lord Farfanoogin's better off trapping his inner sanctum so no one gets as far as killing him before they start ransacking the place.

 

[takasi]

I believe, but I could be wrong, that it's presented in Traps & Treachery I or II.

I'm not familiar with that new mechanic. Could he beat it by taking 20 on search?

But the guy assumes that whoever's coming in is going to look in the cookie jar in the first place.

Lord Farfinoogin's manor isn't going to get ransacked unless someone comes in and kills Lord Farfanoogin and everyone in the building. No burglar is going to have the time to do a full take 20 on every square in his manor. So there's no reason for him to trap the cookie jar if that's where he's hiding his gems - the maids and cooks aren't going to have the search skill to pull off finding the false bottom. Lord Farfanoogin's better off trapping his inner sanctum so no one gets as far as killing him before they start ransacking the place.

The fact that there's something in the cookie jar means that as a player I would want to take 20 on searching every square. Do I have to kill Lord Farfinoogin first to do that? Maybe, maybe not. But I want the cookie, and that's going to take time to find.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Just what is the rest of the party doing while the rogue is going over every nook and cranny in a dungeon? And I mean the characters not the players.

Oh, we had a routine for dangerous things.

The rogue (or occasionally another PC who had to do something) would go to do their thing.

The rest of the party would retreat behind cover, but within movement range. This was dramatized with a "(scuttling sounds) Ready!"

Then they would start up the portable stove and boil water for tea.

Brad

 

[Rechan]

Adventurers go into "dungeons" (which may or may not include linen closets and bathrooms) looking for your stuff.

In your games, maybe. In my games? The PCs are going in to kill you because you're the bad guy. They want to stop your ritual from plunging the surrounding countryside into darkness. They want to stop you from raiding the local town nearby. They want to bring you to justice for killing the mayor. Escaping means "Now they're on your tail". Any sort of search check is an afterthought.

Hell, in one of my campaigns, the PCs have not rolled search check 1, because they are sent on a mission to basically 'kill everything inside that abandoned town so we can move these refugees into it'; they're not bothering to search until they get the place generally cleaned.

 

[Rechan]

I'm not familiar with that new mechanic. Could he beat it by taking 20 on search?

If you take 20, are you five over search DC?

The fact that there's something in the cookie jar means that as a player I would want to take 20 on searching every square.

How do you, the player, know for a fact there's something in the jar in the first place? You don't.

And you can't just take 20 in every square, because eventually a member of the staff is going to come across you, set off an alarm, and the guards are going to be on your ass pretty soon.