15 Minute Workday Myth?

[Irda Ranger]

I'll agree that the 15-minute work day can be a result of play style, and there are things a DM can do to mitigate it, but the fact remains that 3E encourages the 15-minute play style by rewarding PC's who engage in it with more resources for the next fight. 4E seems to be doing away with the hard-wired reward of resting for 8 hours (or, the reward is there, but it's much reduced).

What I am curious about is how and how quickly 4E characters recover Hit Points, because that's the other piece of the 15-minute work day. Sometimes the Wizard has spells left over, but a couple bad rolls resulted in a warrior type being taken down to dangerously low HP. Some systems allow HP to regenerate at a rate of 1 / minute (which makes sense if you think of them as skill / luck / grace, rather than physical integrity), which encourages PC's to "stop and catch their breath" after a fight, but not set up camp. I like this, and I expect 4E will do something like it.

For the record, I like to encourage a "conserve your resources" approach gaming by my PC's by imposing in-game restrictions of various kinds. e.g., "You have three days to rescue the captives, or they're dead." or "You have three days worth of water." or "Your Healing spells are disjuncted by the profane aura of this place." I mix it up to keep things new and interesting, but the point is to encourage a connection with the world the PC's are residing in, and to reduce the "pure gamist" reasoning of Fight; Rest for 8 Hours; Take 20 on every 5' Square; etc. It's just the type of game I prefer to run.

 

[Rechan]

What exactly is she doing? Getting goggles of minute seeing? Sinking in valuable feats just for search? Even if she does have a +16, at 11th level most of the traps are search DC 34. She'll need to take 20 or more than likely she'll miss it.

Looking at the 10th level traps in the SRD, there are three traps with a search DC of 32-34.

Of those three, they all have Disable Device of 32-34.

So if you think that taking 20 is really the only option when finding traps, then you must think the equally high DD save is unfair, because you can't take 20 to disable it.

 

[Doug McCrae]

The 15 minute day is fairly common in our present campaign. I can take measures to prevent it but I often don't. Not the same as your methods as there's no rogue.

I see nothing wrong with taking 20 on all Search checks. Adventurers are risking their lives and you don't mess around when your life is on the line. It slows the characters down, not the players.

 

[takasi]

OK, that solves the "15 minute workday" problem in game, but I don't think that really states the heart of the issue. Dr. Awkward got to it in his post above. Even if the PCs spend 10 1/2 hours of in game time searching a dungeon, which may only take a hour or so out of game, when they get into a fight, they will likely have that one fight and have to rest. The overall effect is the same. One fight, and rest before the next one.

The effect isn't exactly the same. If you have a time sink for exploration then exploration becomes the motivating factor for rest, not encounters. I like to run games where the party is trying to find something in the dungeon, not necessarily kill everything there. Time spent exploring will attract encounters.

Many times we find our traps by setting them off. We search places we expect to find some kind of trap for the unwary, but if traps are just arrayed in unexpected locations that don't make sense except to create a "gotcha" moment, it just creates a level of paranoia that is unfun to me.

Traps are supposed to be in unexpected places. Placing them in predictable locations is unfun for me.

 

[Rechan]

The effect isn't exactly the same. If you have a time sink for exploration then exploration becomes the motivating factor for rest, not encounters.

There's nothing that requires PCs to rest. If no monster wanders up to them while they're searching, they could search eight days straight, since there's no rule Requiring them to sleep. Or eat/drink, for that matter.

So they're motivated to rest, why?

 

[takasi]

So if you think that taking 20 is really the only option when finding traps, then you must think the equally high DD save is unfair.

But you can fail by 4 on DD, and there are more tools and synergies for that.

It also doesn't hose the whole party, just the rogue (who has evasion, trap sense, high saves, etc).

I'm all for rolling disable device, even if the DC is high. That's what makes a rogue's life exciting. But it should be one roll, IMO, not two. Take 20 on the search.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

And most of the traps in the DMG have values that require taking 20 on the part of the average rogue at 25 point buy. The average search DC for a CR 1 trap is 22. Lidda only has a +6 to search, so the chances are she's not going to find the trap unless she takes 20. The rule of thumb is that if there's no way to do something by taking 10 then you should probably be taking 20 (especially if there's nothing stopping you from doing so other than time).

Really, how are you guys finding traps without taking 20?

Mostly by only searching for traps on things that are likely to be trapped. This list of things does not include:

• Doors that are used by the dungeon occupants
• Lockers, chests, bags, and other containers used by the dungeon occupants
• Random floor tiles

It only makes sense to put a trap on something that you don't want people to interact with regularly. Otherwise you run the risk of accidentally setting off the trap. Traps work best guarding back doors and treasuries.

As well, walking through a dungeon for 8 hours while you search for traps has many of the same accompanying problems as sleeping for 8 hours does, with respect to giving the enemy time to respond to your presence.

 

[takasi]

There's nothing that requires PCs to rest. If no monster wanders up to them while they're searching, they could search eight days straight, since there's no rule Requiring them to sleep. Or eat/drink, for that matter.

So they're motivated to rest, why?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#forcedMarch

You walk in the dungeon while searching, so I think this rule should apply. Rest isn't required after 8 hours but there are potential problems if you continue for "eight days straight".

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't see this as a problem though. In fact, I think it would be more of a problem if they don't have to stop fighting between encounters. You get the "level three times in one day" problem. Now you HAVE TO to institute a time sink like encouraging players to take 20 on the rooms they search. Without a resource sink there's nothing stopping them plowing through a dungeon in 15 minutes.

The designers have stated that they want to avoid this extreme too.

 

[Rechan]

It also doesn't hose the whole party, just the rogue (who has evasion, trap sense, high saves, etc).

By that logic then, the rogue could just intentionally trigger every trap since he's got the defenses.

That's what makes a rogue's life exciting.

Different strokes. I personally don't want to play Bomb Defuser Guy.

Hell, I'd much rather play a fighter/barb for their Trapsense and use Dungeoncrasher for that yummy +x to AC/Saves vs. traps, and just charge through setting them off, rather than stand around poking everything with a ten foot pole.