15 Minute Workday Myth?

[cignus_pfaccari]

By rolling.

If you don't have a chance to make it by taking ten, then I don't think it's an adequate CR for your level. Taking 20 for every trap just seems ridiculous to me.

Also, traps have CR. If you can just beat the trap by taking 20, that's free XP right there. There should be a chance of FAILURE.

Also, remember that DCs only scale so far. Yes, at 1st level Lidda might have only a +6, but she's darn skippy got more than +16 at 11th level if she knows what she's doing.

There are times to take 20 for traps. Primarily, when there is no time pressure whatsoever. For example, looting the ancient tomb that's been undisturbed for five millenia, nobody's going to come in and hurry you. But if I'm spending an hour searching every nook and cranny of a room in the BBEG's fortress for traps and items, I'm just begging for someone to come and interrupt me.

Brad

 

[Rechan]

I don't see this as a problem though. In fact, I think it would be more of a problem if they don't have to stop fighting between encounters. You get the "level three times in one day" problem. Now you HAVE TO to institute a time sink like encouraging players to take 20 on the rooms they search. Without a resource sink there's nothing stopping them plowing through a dungeon in 15 minutes.

So do you require training before leveling up? Because a PC can go from level 1 to level 19 in a year.

Or do you just say "And the next adventure takes place six months from now..."?

Also, in your game, is a combat round longer than 6 seconds? Because if not, monsters live basically 6-18 seconds, as most monsters usually die within 3 rounds, at least in my experience. So as it's written, a dungeon taking 15 minutes in-game is about right. It's better than 3.X, where you beat a dungeon in several days because you're resting two or three times along the way.

A dungeon taking 15 minutes isn't all that unreasonable when you consider modern SWAT teams can take down their intended target in less than a minute - they move in, sweep every room as they go, and take out targets by everyone aiming and taking them out. I've seen a simulation where the SWAT team took out two targets holding a hostage in under 59 seconds.

I guess it just depends on playstyle. I, personally, am fast and loose with resource management, treasure and I let the rules slant in favor of the PCs. I don't make PCs count their arrows or rations unless I specifically want to play up the "Survival Horror Ammo Syndrom" or they're pinned down in some place for several weeks and thus food is going to start getting scarce.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm well acquainted with the 15 minute workday. Believe me, it's no myth.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Without a resource sink there's nothing stopping them plowing through a dungeon in 15 minutes.

Why is that a bad thing? Are your dungeons located one on top of the other?

If it's small enough that one can go through it and fight everything in there in 15 minutes game time, then so be it.

Of course, one should also remember that you're not necessarily plowing ahead at light speed every round; you can, but you may not. People will stand around while one guy gets out equipment, uses the bathroom, looks something up, marks the wall, etc.

Brad

 

[Cadfan]

The thought that comes to mind then is to make encounters hard, not because it's a monster with huge HP/saves/damage output, but to make a difficult situation that doesn't necessitate the use of high level abilities.

Take the standard CR monster for the PCs level, and put it on a swaying rope bridge above wide pit filled with swarms of some kind. PCs on a rickety raft versus underwater zombies trying to capsize their boat/drag them into the water. Neither of these necessitate "Use your highest level spells", but they aren't a speedbump for the PCs either.

This doesn't work.

For any example you come up with, the party can use their highest level spells to get out of it. Typically, they do this by killing the monsters really, really fast, then leaving the zone of danger.

 

[Rechan]

This doesn't work.

For any example you come up with, the party can use their highest level spells to get out of it. Typically, they do this by killing the monsters really, really fast, then leaving the zone of danger.

Except that they don't Have to. They don't Need to to beat the encounter.

That, and those spells aren't always useful - like the fireball versus the underwater zombies. Especially when you're in the middle of them.

 

[takasi]

By rolling.

If you don't have a chance to make it by taking ten, then I don't think it's an adequate CR for your level. Taking 20 for every trap just seems ridiculous to me.

Also, traps have CR. If you can just beat the trap by taking 20, that's free XP right there. There should be a chance of FAILURE.

You only get the XP if you disable the trap, not if you find the trap. Disabling requries a roll because there IS a chance for failure, so there's no "free xp".

 

[Fifth Element]

In one of my games, the players are so paranoid and cautious I just want to scream at them. They find a sack in a monster's lair, they cast detect magic on it, then they pull their weapons and poke the sack, then they look inside, then they turn the sack upside down with their weapons drawn. It really slows things down and makes every five feet an exercise in analysis.

Way back in the day my brother was a ridiculously cautious player. The running gag we had was that after poking the thing (whatever it was) with a 10' pole for a few minutes, he could then move on to the 9' pole. Etc.

Of course, our DM back then was a killer, so it's not completely indefensible. It was good for a laugh sometimes.

 

[takasi]

Also, remember that DCs only scale so far. Yes, at 1st level Lidda might have only a +6, but she's darn skippy got more than +16 at 11th level if she knows what she's doing.

What exactly is she doing? Getting goggles of minute seeing? Sinking in valuable feats just for search? Even if she does have a +16, at 11th level most of the traps are search DC 34. She'll need to take 20 or more than likely she'll miss it.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

OK, it's not:

DM: "You're in a kitchen area. There is a cauldron above a fireplace and some sacks of food in the corner."

Player: "What's in this square? I take 20!"

DM: "Nothing."

Player: "What about that one?"

DM: "Nothing."

Again, that's NOT how we play.

Remember that taking 20 doesn't mean the table sits around for 2 minutes of gametime.

In our games, we enter a room that's 20x30. I say "Taking 6 seconds per 5' or 2 minutes? About 3 minutes for one or 48 minutes for the other." They tell me, we all write it down (for possible fatigue and monitoring buffs), adjudicate (hey found a trap, found some hidden treasure under a fake floor panel, found a secret door, etc) and move on.

It's all abstract and the game runs very smooth.

OK, that solves the "15 minute workday" problem in game, but I don't think that really states the heart of the issue. Dr. Awkward got to it in his post above. Even if the PCs spend 10 1/2 hours of in game time searching a dungeon, which may only take a hour or so out of game, when they get into a fight, they will likely have that one fight and have to rest. The overall effect is the same. One fight, and rest before the next one.

Really, how are you guys finding traps without taking 20?

Many times we find our traps by setting them off. We search places we expect to find some kind of trap for the unwary, but if traps are just arrayed in unexpected locations that don't make sense except to create a "gotcha" moment, it just creates a level of paranoia that is unfun to me.