16th level party TPKd by a goblin?!!

[Dark Eternal]

I assume that's 198 hp? Max on 19d10 + 19x4 is 266.

You are correct. My error.

Your guys must have been really unlucky or really overconfident. Looking at those stats, I don't think he's that twinked out at all. Okay, he's 19th level and has gear to match, but a reasonably strong 15th-18th level party should have been able to take him down.

Which was exactly what I thought would happen. The party should have been able to beat him. I think "really unlucky" is a pretty accurate description.

Originally posted by Harlock
As a player that is one thing I hate more than anything. You're the DM, you pick the encounters. You beat the players into a bloody pulp, then you nerf it? I hate TPKs but I hate contrived critter nerfing even more.

My players (and I, for that matter) feel exactly the same way. As much as the total party kill may have sucked, they would have been even less happy if I had suddenly altered reality to save them. The players knew how badly their rolls were sucking. They knew that they were screwed. They would have really hated it if I had invoked Deus Ex Mechana to pull their fat out of the fire. So... they all died. Somehow, that doesn't seem very good, either.

Originally posted by jdavis
TPK's happen but I have a friend who quit gaming over stuff like that, you work on a character for over a year to get them up to that level and then bam they are gone in a meaningless encounter. It gets frustrating for players, personally I never TPK a party (I always work in a backdoor or a way out for myself if things go wrong). In this situation they just blew it but it's always good to let at least one player escape/only be knocked unconsious so he can resurrect the rest. You get the same effect but don't destroy your campaign.

Now, this is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. Somehow, I never even thought of this... I could have simply let everyone take a break after the battle, then called them back to the table, picked one player, and said "Your character stabilized, and the next morning, you wake up with one hit point." Damn, I wish I'd thought of this! I would have still made quite an impression, but my campaign could have continued.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Malin Genie
With only a +12 Will save I'm very surprised no-one just threw a Hold Monster/Feeblemind/Dominate Person/Hold Person/etc on him.... an 18th level party should be able to manage decent DCs...or grapple (the -4 size penalty will hurt him, and he can only attack with one weapon while grappled) or both....

Oh, it was tried. Believe me. And with only a +12 Will save, Ragu still made both saving throws in question - one vs. a Greater Command, if I recall correctly... the other against a death spell of some kind - can't remember which one off the top of my head. I'm telling you, the dice worshipped Ragu that night.

Originally posted by Mustrum Ridcully
Speaking of size - until now, no one mentioned that he could not use the Luck Blade or the evil Sunblade as a finessed weapon. The Short Sword isn`t a light weapon for a goblin (size of weapon and character is small), so Weapon Finesse (Short Sword) is "illegal".

I completely forgot to mention this on his stat block; thanks for bringing it up. I allowed Ragu to finesse the short swords simply because I had allowed one of the pc's to talk me into letting him finesse a longsword, as an exceptional case. I feel that any exceptional circumstances that players can use for their pc's should also be able to apply to exceptional npc's... so Ragu (who by goblin standards is VERY exceptional) seemed a natural for the same special case.

Originally posted by NewJeffCT
I just think it's funny his name is "Ragu" - did you tell them the goblin was named after a brand of spaghetti sauce?

They named a spaghetti sauce after my goblin??
( - and no, I didn't tell them his name. They never asked... )

Originally posted by Al
What surprises me is that the PCs had no backup plan. As the old maxim goes, if you have no backup plan, you have no plan at all.

Where were the Clones?
Where were the Contingency Teleports?
Where were the last minute Miracles?

Personally, the goblin seems to be not particularly powerful. Unless he had absurdly good luck, there is no reason why the party should have survived. For one, unless you have houseruled Harm, that's the best place to start...

The spellcasters were the first to go down - the battle would probably have taken a completely different turn, otherwise. As for backups, the party had used up most of their backup resources in the battle the previous session. I considered it one of the signs that they were getting cocky when they decided there was no reason to take the time to reset/renew their safety nets before going back for the treasure. Guess they'll know better next time.

Originally posted by Dark Dragon
Hmm, seems that the party encountered some sort of a Yoda goblin - and where so impressed that they weren't able to use some good spells and combat tactics...or were they low on spells, hps, gear?

You know, I never even thought about Yoda until you said that. Damn, but that would have been a great way to give the players a visual idea of what Ragu looked like in action. Missed opportunity... *sighs*

They were fully restocked on spells, hp & such at the beginning of the encounter. Their luck was just that bad. Poor fools.


Thanks for the stories, everyone - it really is nice to know that these things don't just happen to me! I particularly liked the story of the pc's who took the trouble to go all the way back to town for their impending TPK, Al - that one just makes me shake my head sadly...

 

[Dark Eternal]

That's totally inexcusable. The party deserved to die. A size small fighter with no capability for travel, flight, ranged attacks, or spell casting and he owned them.

18th level parties that aren't flying or softening their opponents up from afar deserve what they get. Especially when they don't use mass heals to stay in the game.

That creature should not have won against a party like that. Not in the least. You didn't do anything wrong, the players just had their characters commit mass suicide. That goblin has nothing but attacks and ac. He's got no great intelligence or wisdom, no versatility, he's just a walking blender. So back up. Or fly. Or go invisible. Or do any of the things you have supposed to have been doing since 5th level. Oi.

A single weak thought in my party's defense - Ragu really picked the location of the ambush quite well. And, he took out the primary spellcasters first off (Cleric first, sorcerer second). But that said, I am in complete agreement with you. They just sat there and went toe-to-toe with him!!!! AND, they rolled suckily while doing so!

(Is suckily a word? *shrugs*)

Anyways... like I said, we all learned something. I guess they thought tactics were something you only use for really impressive opponents - the group tactics in the fight against the dragons the previous session had been impeccable. Same party, same cavern, but with a goblin instead of two dragons - and they played their characters like neanderthals. Go figure.

 

[mmu1]

These guys took down two dragons and a powerful spellcaster? Where did those reside, in a retirement home for disabled BBEGs?

What kind of a 14th level arcane caster walks into a dragon's lair (abandoned or not) without Stoneskin on? How does a 17th level cleric die from a single round of attacks? Where were their spells that don't give saves? I DM a party with an 11th level sorcerer, and he never walks anymore - anywhere - he Flies... He could have Magic Missiled the little runt to death (while Improved Invisible) all by himself.

For that matter, how did they miss the DC 22 listen check? They should have been able to make it easily just Taking 10.

 

[alsih2o]

it's the DM's job to bring them back to reality.

i am sorry, i had troubled reading after this line. i was laughing too hard

 

[mmu1]

Re: Re: 16th level party TPKd by a goblin?!!

i am sorry, i had troubled reading after this line. i was laughing too hard

Hmm... Good point. Looks like most of us failed our Irony Checks.

 

[Tisvon]

These guys took down two dragons and a powerful spellcaster? Where did those reside, in a retirement home for disabled BBEGs?

What kind of a 14th level arcane caster walks into a dragon's lair (abandoned or not) without Stoneskin on? How does a 17th level cleric die from a single round of attacks? Where were their spells that don't give saves? I DM a party with an 11th level sorcerer, and he never walks anymore - anywhere - he Flies... He could have Magic Missiled the little runt to death (while Improved Invisible) all by himself.

For that matter, how did they miss the DC 22 listen check? They should have been able to make it easily just Taking 10.

You can't take 10 on a listen check.

 

[Dark Eternal]

*content deleted by Dark Eternal.*

 

[mmu1]

You can't take 10 on a listen check.

Sure you can. If you can Take 10 on Hide and Move silently checks, you can Take 10 on Listen and Spot.

 

[alsih2o]

wel, you set out to teach them a leson, adn i think it is time to get your head in a neutral space and think about what lesson you taught them.

i assumed you designed all of the encounters before this one? if so, i think you were the single largest influence on the partys attitude.

i think the d.m., especially by these lvls, has pretty much let the party know EXACTLY what to expect from encounters, if they ahd a cocky attitude or felt undefeatable, it has to be largely due to their experiences in this campaign. had anything else challenged them so strongly? had you set them up with a number of encounters they couldn't win previously?

i think it sounds like you taught your players to think one way, then switched tactics on them. i personally see this as bad d.m.ing. you point out that you fudged no rolls this time, that seems to point to the fact that you fudged for them before. i see this as practically a double cross, and i would be shocked if anyone from my 2 game groups played again with a d.m. who pulled such a "tactic"

 

[megamania]

Once killed a party of 6 8-10th level characters with a dozen regular skeltons. go figure.

As you said- bad luck, bad planning, over confident. DEADLY

stuff happens....