D&D General 1s and 20s: D&D's Narrative Mechanics

[prabe]

And yet many don't. Remove the 1 and 20. Return to binary.

If you need more than 20 to succeed, or less than 1 to fail, the narrative should dictate a roll isn't even called for.

Or use "fail/succeed by X" mechanics, if you need Extreme Success/Failure. (In a game where you're just rolling the 1 d20, at least.)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Strawman arguments that get endlessly repeated and the terms you use show bias. I happen to like D&Ds approach as DM and player. It has nothing to do with desperately trying to maintain control of my precious world or any of the other BS that comes up.

It's about clear roles and what works best for people. When I play I only want to think of my character and influence the world through their actions. My players feel the same.

I've read up on and tried games with a narrative approach (as well as D&D with a more narrative approach) and they just don't work for me. It's a preference and informed decision that I've made. It has nothing to do with "unreflective dislike of the idea that anyone but the DM made that get to narrate anything." Or narrative descriptions of the results.

What "strawman arguments" specifically are you talking about?

As to the rest, it's unclear to me why you're so seemingly upset. I'm quite willing to believe you have tried such systems and don't speak from ignorance but you seem to believe my general assertions were an attack on you personally. I would maintain a lot of weird opposition to narrativism does come from a place of ignorance and fear, but I didn't suggest all of it did, despite you seeming to believe that.

Just as an example of how paranoid and weird some people get about this, I saw a post on Reddit earlier about how Daggerheart was basically an evil trick to try and get pure hearted gamists to play a "story-game", which was apparently made in all seriousness. There's a lot of it out there.

 

[Reynard]

Yeah, I get it. I don't do that beyond what the rules allow, and I'm not sure how common that idea is (although I obviously don't really know). Even so, what conclusion do you want us to draw from this?

Again, it is in the OP. I presented a thing, and then asked (the general) you what you thought of it. I was just clarifying for (the specific) you that I was not talking about critical fumbles and hits, which you seemed to think i was.

Do you agree on the hard sell suggestion?

I think people are ethusiastic when they like something. If you call that a "hard sell" okay. But even so, I think you interpret a "hard sell" as some sort of attack when it is not.

The issue I have with this is exactly what is happening now: we are on a tangent about posting etiquette and personal feelings instead of talking about the subject of the thread.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Again, it is in the OP. I presented a thing, and then asked (the general) you what you thought of it. I was just clarifying for (the specific) you that I was not talking about critical fumbles and hits, which you seemed to think i was.


I think people are ethusiastic when they like something. If you call that a "hard sell" okay. But even so, I think you interpret a "hard sell" as some sort of attack when it is not.

The issue I have with this is exactly what is happening now: we are on a tangent about posting etiquette and personal feelings instead of talking about the subject of the thread.

Fair enough. Carry on.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You mean phrases like "It boils down to unreflective dislike of the idea that anyone but the DM made that get to narrate anything"? You really don't see how that's basically saying that shared narrative control is superior and it's the fault of the GM if that control is not shared?

No.

That's a frankly bizarre bad faith reading.

It's also very funny because about 70% of the games I run are not labelled as "narrative" nor have much shared narrative control (if any).

 

[AlViking]

What "strawman arguments" specifically are you talking about?

As to the rest, it's unclear to me why you're so seemingly upset. I'm quite willing to believe you have tried such systems and don't speak from ignorance but you seem to believe my general assertions were an attack on you personally. I would maintain a lot of weird opposition to narrativism does come from a place of ignorance and fear, but I didn't suggest all of it did, despite you seeming to believe that.

Just as an example of how paranoid and weird some people get about this, I saw a post on Reddit earlier about how Daggerheart was basically an evil trick to try and get pure hearted gamists to play a "story-game", which was apparently made in all seriousness. There's a lot of it out there.

I'm not upset. I just think your statements are biased and unfounded.

::sigh:: I don't want to derail this any more. It's an endless argument and you seem to be unable to accept that most games now, and those that have been played for a half century, follow a pattern that people both DM and player alike happen to prefer. Fortunately if you want a different approach D&D is quite flexible and there are plenty of other games.

But this same old BS rears it's head repeatedly. Can't we just agree to disagree?

 

[zakael19]

I think part of it might be cultural, and part is a desire to highlight unique patterns that the human brain fixes on and gets a dopamine hit from. Roll a Crit at that important moment? The table goes crazy, you did that your brain says! “Heck yeah!” All the players go; and sometimes that happens on “Nat 1s” too. There’s an excitement to see what this means. Streaming games have certainly added to the mystique.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm not upset. I just think your statements are biased and unfounded.

::sigh:: I don't want to derail this any more. It's an endless argument and you seem to be unable to accept that most games now, and those that have been played for a half century, follow a pattern that people both DM and player alike happen to prefer. Fortunately if you want a different approach D&D is quite flexible and there are plenty of other games.

But this same old BS rears it's head repeatedly. Can't we just agree to disagree?

Agree to disagree about what exactly? It seems a bit strange to ask for that whilst literally labelling my opinions as "BS" in the sentence before, but you could at least clarify the object of the request.

You also haven't explained how I'm "biased" despite running and enjoying both narrative and gamist games (and simulationist, for that matter). It's be great if you could do that. My personal experience is that there's a unique animus directed towards narrative games. It's strange but easy to show (as per the Reddit post earlier). Some people take them even existing rather personally.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Agree to disagree about what exactly? It seems a bit strange to ask for that whilst literally labelling my opinions as "BS" in the sentence before, but you could at least clarify the object of the request.

You also haven't explained how I'm "biased" despite running and enjoying both narrative and gamist games (and simulationist, for that matter). It's be great if you could do that. My personal experience is that there's a unique animus directed towards narrative games. It's strange but easy to show (as per the Reddit post earlier). Some people take them even existing rather personally.

I know you enjoy other games, but right here you're talking about Narrativism, and that's what being responded to.

 

[Reynard]

I think part of it might be cultural, and part is a desire to highlight unique patterns that the human brain fixes on and gets a dopamine hit from. Roll a Crit at that important moment? The table goes crazy, you did that your brain says! “Heck yeah!” All the players go; and sometimes that happens on “Nat 1s” too. There’s an excitement to see what this means. Streaming games have certainly added to the mystique.

This is a good point. Rare events are to be celebrated or have weight or whatever, so it often inspires people to make 1s and 20s "matter." If there are critical hits and fumbles, that is built into combat. But D&D doesn't really do that for skill rolls.