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D&D 4E 1st level 4E characters are already Heroes

ptolemy18 said:
Yeah, but I can still complain about it on the Internet. (And they can still ignore me, of course...) ;)

Now that I think about it, when I was first starting out as a gamer at the age of 6 years old, my DM -- some teenage guy -- obviously fudged the dice to keep me and my friend from dying. If I hadn't beaten that Minotaur as a 1st-level fighter, who knows, maybe I would have gotten ticked off and not had a good time and never wanted to play D&D again. (Quite likely, in fact.) But this is because my DM was smart enough to tailor the game for a temperamental 6-year-old... it doesn't mean that Wizards should tailor the game for them.
"We played Dungeons & Dragons for three hours! Then I was slain by an elf." -- Homer Simpson

Did Homer ever play D&D again?
 

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ptolemy18 said:
I disagree completely. It's *fun* starting out as a 1st-level stripling, just making your way in the world. Think how how many fantasy novels start out this way. Harry Potter isn't an awesome ass-kicker at the start of the first book, and that's fine.

He's also eleven years old.
 


hong said:
No, it's not.

Your opinion, my opinion. *I* think it's fun.

If I wanted to play someone who is already a totally awesome hero, I'd (1) play a higher-level campaign or a higher-level pick-up game or (2) play another RPG. If you're first-level, you're a beginner wizard just out of wizard school; you're an apprentice cleric; you're a footsoldier; that kind of stuff.

And then it becomes SO MUCH COOLER if you actually manage to live long enough to become a bad-ass.

D&D is actually sort of alone among RPGs in that the characters are so weak when they start out. But this is kind of a distinguishing point of D&D, and -- hmm, coincidentally -- D&D is the most popular RPG there is, so maybe it's *not* something that's turning away large numbers of players?

The fact that D&D is "level-based" is one of the strongest reasons for having the characters start out kinda weak. In a skill-based RPG, where your characters gain power slowly and super-incrementally, of course you start out more awesome. But in a level-based RPG, it doesn't make sense unless the characters start out weak and gradually become awesomer and awesomer. So then it just becomes a question of "what is the starting entry point for the game, become totally awesome?" I think the best entry point is "a competent newbie adventurer" rather than "some awesome badass hero who then becomes progressively more awesome."

Plus, this way the game supports two types of play, depending on your taste: low-level semi-realistic play where death is always an orc away (similar to Warhammer FRPG or whatever), and high-level epic play where the characters can do incredibly awesome things and teleport around and plane-shift and fight demons and come back from the dead (similar to Amber or some White Wolf game or another high-high-high-fantasy game of clashing powers).

I submit: (1) The mixture of these two kinds of play is a feature which makes D&D original. And (2) this is a good feature.

The feel of the game, and the kind of plots and character roles, is SUPPOSED to change as your level goes up. The only problem with this is all the math at higher levels in D&D3.x, when characters get 4 attacks per round, and so on. But that's a logistical problem, not a problem in the actual style of play. Of COURSE a game starring completely awesome dudes who have saved the kingdom a dozen times is going to play differently than a game starring some 1st-level schlubs who just have to guard a caravan and search the old abandoned temple for treasure!! All things are not scaleable, and one of those things is the mood and feel of the campaign. If all that changes is "now you're fighting 15 ogres and a giant instead of fighting 15 orcs and an ogre," then that's a problem.

Look, I can understand the desire for more heroic play. If that's the way D&D4e is, then oh well, I'll live; I'm enough of a game geek that I can find other games which I like to play. But "starting out weak and getting strong" is one of the main traits distinguishing D&D from all other RPGs. It's not "starting out strong and getting stronger."
 
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Dr. Awkward said:
"We played Dungeons & Dragons for three hours! Then I was slain by an elf." -- Homer Simpson

Did Homer ever play D&D again?

Like I said -- I was 6 years old and like any 6-year-old, I wanted instant monster-kicking gratification. I'm glad my D&D fudged the dice for me. But that's the DM's call. I don't want Wizards to "fudge the dice" for ever single new D&D player.
 

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Just Another User said:
Personally I agree with who said that this is power bloat, I like the concept of "farmboy go to adventure with a sword and 50 gps in his pouch" in 3rd edition you can still do it (even if the farm boy is better than many city guards), in 4D! apparently this would not be possible.

I agree.

Here's a compromise with all the people who love starting out heroic at 1st level. What if the basic 4th edition Player's Handbook includes an appendix for starting play at "0-level" (or "-2 Level", "-1 Level", whatever) for less heroic characters. Then at least the option is open and "made official", as opposed to having to be some idea which DMs must house-rule and which will then spark the pity and mockery of all their players ("You want us to start with WEAKER CHARACTERS than 1ST LEVEL? Using some inane house system? Forget it, pal.") I imagine this would be nearly impossible but it's a thought.

Or, alternately, the "grim-and-gritty with more deadly combat" variant... but these sort of things would probably have to end up being relegated to an Unearthed Arcana-style "alternate rules and systems" book.

Jason
 



ptolemy18 said:
D&D is actually sort of alone among RPGs in that the characters are so weak when they start out.

And, for me at least, this leads to huge flavor problems. If low level adventurers are so weak, why does anyone ever ask them for help? Why would a small town send a party of four 1st level PCs to deal with that goblin tribe that's been harassing them when a patrol of town guardsmen could handle the problem just as well if not better?

And the other problem is, more than just dying easily, several classes just aren't fun to play at 1st level. I'll never play a 1st level wizard again under the current rules. "Cast two spells and then play an Expert for the rest of the adventure" holds no appeal for me.
 

Grog said:
And the other problem is, more than just dying easily, several classes just aren't fun to play at 1st level. I'll never play a 1st level wizard again under the current rules. "Cast two spells and then play an Expert for the rest of the adventure" holds no appeal for me.

Your wizards aren't specialists?? That could be a whole THREE spells! ;)

Maybe I've just been used to the D&D wizard for so long this sort of thing never bothers me. I always accepted them as a class which starts sort of weak (the operative word being "sort of" -- a well-used spell, plus familiar powers, can be a lot more effective than any number of fighting abilities, particularly in an out of combat, "surprise! I am a spellcaster!" fashion) and then gets progressively more awesome until at high levels they completely rule. (In fact, the only thing that really bothered me about 3.5 was how they nerfed high-level arcane spellcasting... I've always accepted it as the wizard's perk for having endured the relatively dangerous low levels.)

In short, I have no problem with the model of "fighter-types are FAIRLY strong ALL the time -- wizards are SUPER-strong SOME of the time but if they run out of spells, they're screwed." It's more fun that way. I'm not tied to Vancian spellcasting, but I *do* think that *some* kind of "power pool", psychic points or whatever, is an important mechanic for allowing spellcaster characters to be awesome without having to make every spellcaster's spell be equal to every fighter's sword-blow. Spellcasters are characters who require resource management and planning. In my last 8 years of playing D&D3.0, 9 out of 10 of my characters were spellcasters (4 arcane, 5 divine), so I don't see why some people find them so hard to play...

Jason
 
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