1st to 3rd ED Wiz Casting

[SkidAce]

As short as possible here is my call for opinions.

In first edition we never had wizards mem specific spells. They had to prep in the morning for an amount of time but thats irrelevant. (Hmm we didn't have them mem in Basic either)

So the trend continued in 2nd edition. Everything played fine and people had fun.

Now we have 3rd edition. Love it. But look, other people must of thought like we did cause here is a sorcerer class that doesn't have to mem specific spells. And I like the sorcerer, it fits into my campaign world as a arcane caster that gets spells from bargins with beings of power (good for witches, diabolists, shaman etc.)

Onward to the dilema!

Wizards that "free" cast (as we call it). Get higher level spells faster than sorcerer. Just casts less per day. Gets bonus meta magic feats. Theoretically knows all spells.

Sorcerer. Cast more spells per day. Limited selection of spells.

So what can I do that is subtle that will cause these both to be semibalanced with each other?

Of course I could just accept the fact that PCs will not prefer a sorcerer.
For my campaign (roleplaying contex) the fact that wizards are more powerful than sorcerers is no problem.

It's the rules balance that has me a little concerned.

SkidAce

 

[Darkness]

Moved to House Rules.

 

[Particle_Man]

For what it is worth, one of my DM's thinks that arcane casters
are underpowered, so he amalgamated the sorceror and
the wizard. Spells cast per day like Sorceror, bonus feats like wizard,
spells known like wizard (you put them in your spell book, and there is no limit,
apart from this, for spells known). Plus, you can put any spell in the PHB in your spell book,
even if it is on the cleric, druid, bard, paladin or ranger lists.

And he STILL thinks that wizards are underpowered!

 

[Kerrick]

The way we did it was that sorcerers also get bonus feats every 5 levels, but they can only choose from metamagic feats, while wizards can only choose item creation feats. It simulates the fact that wizards are more likely to craft magic items, while sorcerers are more "flash-n-dash" - they're more lkely to choose the metamagic feats.

 

[Staffan]

You might want to take a look at the Magister from Arcana Unearthed. They know almost all spells, get to "ready" a certain amount each day, and can freely use their spell slots to cast any spell they have readied. That casting system is supposedly balanced against the slightly weaker spells in Arcana Unearthed though (no Haste or Harm-equivalents).

 

[SkidAce]

Thanks for the inputs.

Probably gonna keep the continuity in my campaign with wizards free casting and figure some benefit for the sorcerers.

I like the metamagic feat idea, but now they are even simliar in nature.
Hmmm I will take my PHB with me to the Command course for the next three weeks and see what I come up with.

SkidAce

 

[ciaran00]

Lets the sorcs learn priest/bard spells kind of like the Sha'ir from 2ed. It's an edge the wizards won't have, and the sorcs have a limited # of spells known anyway so it's not too overwhelming.

ciaran

 

[reapersaurus]

umm.. sorry.
Giving mages more power IS unbalancing.
Just because your group isn't using the powers well, doesn't mean that from a rules standpoint it's not unbalancing.

Giving the sorcerers cleric spells is unbalancing, and not a good idea to fix a wizard problem.

You know, I can't continue, because I don't get the original question:
Are you asking how to make a sorcerer attractive enough that someone would play one in 3E, when they have a hideously-broken wizard class that they can choose to cast ANY spell they know at any time, just because of a 1E misunderstood grandfather clause?

SkidAce - here's the answer to your question:
You cannot do anything subtle that will make them remotely balanced with each other, unless you remove the mistake about wizards and "free casting".

"Wizards theoretically know every spell", indeed.
From the sound of it, your group should stay with AD&D.
That is NOT a criticism - some people like it much better.

 

[SkidAce]

Hey, back from the Base Defense Command Course.

Thanks for the inputs Reapersaurous. No criticism taken. I will elaborate as you are very close to understanding my dilema.

First off though, There was no "mistake" made about the "1st ed free casting", we made a conscious decision at the time to play test it and never went back. My wizards never got overpowered from it, their spell selection was usually only about 4 to 5 spells known in their book above their spells castable per day. Would love to hear the story about the "mistake" though, seems theirs a classic dnd issue I missed in my military travels. (we started with basic red and went to Ad&D very quickly)

Back to the dilema, yes, how to make the sorcerer attractive in a 3rd edition campaign with a free casting wizard class. Because from a roleplaying aspect, I like the sorcerer, a sort off "sponsered" arcane caster, while I see the wizard as a scientist type. ( i changed my cabal of demon summoning bad guys to sorcerers from wizards when 3rd came out, love it)

But from a balance issue I am well aware I am hosed. Even more so becuase of the military, I am in the position of bringing and explaining my campaign world to a new group of players every 2 to 4 years, sigh. Once they see the history and the dynamics they like it, and I have never had a lack of players.

The issue is that I know there is no "rule reason" to play a sorcerer, only "role reasons". As a DM since forever...I know the "hideously-broken wizard class" is the problem...and it nags me. (Yes, crafting a balanced world is a hobby in its self)

Hmmmmm, I guess I should just let my free-casting wizard go....no one but me and my wife remember the last 16 years of games, so my new group doesn't have the nostalgia.

Thanks all...feel free to send any more inputs. I think I am going to allow feats that blur the line between sorc and wiz, while putting back memming spells in the wiz class, that way I can rationalize all my old players as having those feats back then. Should't disrupt continuity for anyone but me.

Thanks reapersaurus, breaking the paradigm is a good thing. (But free casting worked in 1st ed..remeber you could only KNOW so many spells per INT anyway?
Send me the mistake story friend)

after all the game's the important thing.

SkidAce

 

[SkidAce]

Lets the sorcs learn priest/bard spells kind of like the Sha'ir from 2ed. It's an edge the wizards won't have, and the sorcs have a limited # of spells known anyway so it's not too overwhelming.

ciaran

Hmm, not a bad idea (down reapersaurus!, down!) since in my campaign they are "sponsered" arcane anyway.

Still probably have to reign in the wizard now though.

Potential, potential.........

will keep y'all advised

SkidAce