D&D 5E 2-handed weapons: damage delimma

[Zardnaar]

It can be but there's really three ifs there. If you go Dex based, and if you are lower than level 11, and if you are playing with feats.

And even then your best option is two rapiers, which is overly specific, and stylistically may not really be desired. Without the feat your damage is down to a D6+ Dex (no duelist bonus) and you're down two points of AC.

Plus while most campaigns may not go far past level 11, it's not so high that's it's not a consideration. Level 20 is probably not worth being concerned with, but I wouldn't want to watch my characters get overshadowed right as the game reaches a likely climax.

Give out better magic weapons to compensate. Magic hand crossbows and great weapons have become very rare in my games. I'll put them in if the adventure had them.

Magic hand crossbows since early 2015 about 0.

 

[Don Durito]

This is where the whole system throws itself into trouble.



It's difficult to fix one thing without fixing something else.



I'm pretty much convinced that Duellist was originally intended to enable a single handed rapier fighter without a shield. Being in the ball park of Great Weapon Fighting before adding the style, but having the benefit of being able to use Dex, balances reasonably well.



But Great Weapon Master the Feat was too good, so Duelist is only really comparable when it becomes allowable with a shield, but this brings down the trade-off without Great Weapon Master Style as you can now use Dex and have +2 AC.



And then of course the poor Two-Weapon Fighter just gets left completely out of the arms race altogether.



And of course now that Duellist is so good anything else that a Sword and Board fighter might be tempted to pick up such as Defensive Style or Protection just looks weak in comparison. +1 Ac may seem like a reaonable tradeoff for +2 damage at 1st level but that trade-off goes on to become +4 and then +6 as you start piling on the extra attacks.



It also means that any new fighting styles, such as the one that gives you a maneuver and superiority dice in the class variants article, suffer in comparison as well.

I can see two possible way around all these issues. One would be the following:

• Play without feats (Or just ban Great Weapon Master from list of feats available)
• Duelist style requires the one hand be free (no shields no two weapon fighting).
• Perhaps buff Great Weapon Fighting Style slightly.

The big question then, is where should the baseline be here? Is single handed martial damage lacking without Duelist style?

Because the other way would be basically buffing all melee damage of classes that get fighting styles by Ability Mod *1.5 rounddown, which would make up for losing Duellist style. (Great Weapon fighting style could then be Mod*2 and Duelist style could be one free hand and Dex*2)

 

[Zardnaar]

I can see two possible way around all these issues. One would be the following:

• Play without feats (Or just ban Great Weapon Master from list of feats available)
• Duelist style requires the one hand be free (no shields no two weapon fighting).
• Perhaps buff Great Weapon Fighting Style slightly.

The big question then, is where should the baseline be here? Is single handed martial damage lacking without Duelist style?

Because the other way would be basically buffing all melee damage of classes that get fighting styles by Ability Mod *1.5 rounddown, which would make up for losing Duellist style. (Great Weapon fighting style could then be Mod*2)

Flies into things like Valor Bards.

Duelist is something like a 20-25% damage buff.

 

[Don Durito]

Flies into things like Valor Bards.

Duelist is something like a 20-25% damage buff.

Well yes. That's the issue with it. Other options are clearly inferior.

Of course at the moment Valor Bards don't get a fighting style anyway.

I suppose if you were compensating for it you could give + 1.5 to all classes. Since the vast majority of classes don't get more than one attack a round anyway, it wouldn't really hurt anything.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well yes. That's the issue with it. Other options are clearly inferior.

Of course at the moment Valor Bards don't get a fighting style anyway.

I suppose if you were compensating for it you could give + 1.5 to all classes. Since the vast majority of classes don't get more than one attack a round anyway, it wouldn't really hurt anything.

I don't think buffing big weapons is a good idea. They're already the best except in featless games.

 

[Don Durito]

I don't think buffing big weapons is a good idea. They're already the best except in featless games.

Well yes. But I said that earlier. That's part of the issue. With Great Weapon Master they are already extremely good and no one would argue they need to be buffed further. But feats are optional and things need to be balanced without them.

Without Great Weapon Master they do the most damage, but not by a lot. Either they do 8.3 (Greatsword or Maul) or 7.3 (Great Axe) vs 6.5 at the cost of 2 AC, or (with Defensive Style) 7(or 6.5 with Great Axe) vs 6.5 at the cost of 1 AC.

This is not a lot for the amount of defence you give up. Part of the issue also is that the Duellist damage can be gained by dumping Strength and going with Dex (This part doesn't bother me too much - I have a lot of wilderness travel so Athletics rolls happen a lot and encumbrance matters).

 

[Zardnaar]

Well yes. But I said that earlier. That's part of the issue. With Great Weapon Master they are already extremely good and no one would argue they need to be buffed further. But feats are optional and things need to be balanced without them.

Without Great Weapon Master they do the most damage, but not by a lot. Either they do 8.3 (Greatsword or Maul) or 7.3 (Great Axe) vs 6.5 at the cost of 2 AC, or (with Defensive Style) 7(or 6.5 with Great Axe) vs 6.5 at the cost of 1 AC.

This is not a lot for the amount of defence you give up. Part of the issue also is that the Duellist damage can be gained by dumping Strength and going with Dex (This part doesn't bother me too much - I have a lot of wilderness travel so Athletics rolls happen a lot and encumbrance matters).

I think it's intentional to avoid the str buff 3E had and the way d12s were so much better than d8s in 4E with the 2W, 2W,3E etc.

 

[DND_Reborn]

x 1.5

It coincidentally gave an 18 STR two-hander fighter the same +6 damage bonus an 18/00 had enjoyed previously.

We use x1.5 damage for two-handed weapons (round down), but also have light weapons do half STR mod (round down) as well.

 

[dave2008]

I don't think buffing big weapons is a good idea. They're already the best except in featless games.

The game is assumed to be feat-less, so if there is a feat(s) that is a problem you should correct the feat, not the rest of the game.

 

[jgsugden]

Give out better magic weapons to compensate. Magic hand crossbows and great weapons have become very rare in my games. I'll put them in if the adventure had them.

Magic hand crossbows since early 2015 about 0.

So I take it you do not allow PCs to enchant items?