+2 to cha and no counter balance stat: LA +0

Nifft said:
I look forward to tapping your insights! :)

Back on topic: IMHO it really depends what classes and options are available. If you're mostly limited to Core rules, then the Sorcerer and Paladin are on the weak side, and +2 Charisma -- even if it's over and above what a Half Elf already gets* -- is probably not going to break anything.

If various other things are allowed, such as Snowflake Wardance or Blue Dragon Lineage or even Heritage feats in general, I'd re-consider. Basically, there are a lot of supplements that boost both Sorcerers and the value of Charisma. But if you don't allow those, then Charisma is weak. :)

Cheers, -- N

well I would be putting this is a book I'm working on, so i would have no notion of what this would be potentially be mixed with.

I heard that the half orc is balanced because charisma isn't a strong stat so its almost has no effect on the strength vs int (see wood elf). Well So i thought that if its a positive with no counter balance, using the balance of the orc, wouldn't that hold true? It would seem that it doesn't quit work that way.

I am of the opinion also that the sorcerer needs a boost in power and so without touching the sorcerer a race with +2 cha and no counter stat could be a nice way of doing that. just a thought.
 

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Moon-Lancer said:
well I would be putting this is a book I'm working on, so i would have no notion of what this would be potentially be mixed with.

I heard that the half orc is balanced because charisma isn't a strong stat so its almost has no effect on the strength vs int (see wood elf). Well So i thought that if its a positive with no counter balance, using the balance of the orc, wouldn't that hold true? It would seem that it doesn't quit work that way.

I am of the opinion also that the sorcerer needs a boost in power and so without touching the sorcerer a race with +2 cha and no counter stat could be a nice way of doing that. just a thought.
Yeah, that's not quite the idea of the half-orc balance. It isn't reversible, and the explanation isn't quite the explanation you might think.

The explanation for half-orc balance is--"Many characters who kill for a higher Strength can ignore and totally dump Charisma with no effective penalty, and they barely feel the sting of Int loss. Let's make them eat both to get their Strength because otherwise it is really easy to min/max away the losses and keep the big gain"

But this does not apply backwards! Why? Because it assumes (often correctly) that the character who loves Strength does not really need Charisma (for Barbarian, Fighter, etc this is true). But that doesn't mean Charisma isn't ever useful--it means that you can make it not necessary if you want to do so.

However, obviously anyone who took a +2 Charisma race that also gives bonuses to Cha skills is not going to be one of the people who dumped Charisma and made it useless! And for a character who uses Charisma as a casting stat, Charisma is pure gold and Strength is the stat that is worthless and easy to dump.

So you see, stat value is relative for the character, and you have to balance the bonuses assuming they will pick something that likes the bonus and the penalty assuming they will pick something (if they can) that ignores the penalty. That's why it is often best to pick a penalty that hurts a character who would want the bonus. It tends to create balanced choices and you don't have to do the two -2s thing :)
 

i see your point. although i don't understand Why is con not taken under this consideration dwarves? shouldn't they get a -2 to wis as well? cha is a weaker stat even if its used as a caster, because wis is also used for casters but it gives a +1 on will saves as will. The balance still doesn't add up when you look at all the races. a halfing doesn't give up anything, nor do gnomes, but elves and halforcs seem to give up alot. elves giving up the very thing that keeps a character alive in the first place, and halforcs for giving up two stats essentially trapping them in a fighter role. if it was just one, they could be effective clerics or sorcerers, depending.
 
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My suggestion, would be to just give half-elves some other boost to circumvent the whole 'being a better spellcaster than humans is badwrongfun!' problem in 3E, largely a problem created by Wizards of the Coast. Of course, there are still Grey Elves and whatnot. :\

Give 'em something like free Weapon Finesse and +2 on whatever Charisma-based social skills they don't already have a bonus with, and Perform as a class skill as you mentioned. That should do it. And provide enough of the swashbucklery feel. Since they'll still be less flexible than humans and less powerful than dwarves, it should be acceptable.



Generally, the whole '+2 to a mental stat at LA+0' thing is just taboo in 3.x because the designers wanted all the core races to be relatively equal in their capacity to fulfill the basic class roles.

Except, y'know, the dwarf is more equal than everyone else, the half-elf is less equal than most everyone else, and the half-orc is less equal than everyone except the kobold (which isn't even a PHB race). :uhoh: :\

I mean really, who plays half-orc bards? Who has ever considered half-orc bards to be just as effective and suitable combo as human bards? They suffer in their two most important stats as a bard, in exchange for a small boost to melee power. Then on top of that they lack the human feat and skill points, instead just getting darkvision, which they could probably get with a spell anyway after a few levels if they didn't have it already.

Just an example. I actually do play wierd race-class combos most of the time, but the point is, that's purely a roleplaying choice, a conscious decision to play something odd and probably less effective than normal, just because it's different. No one chooses to be a half-orc bard while expecting to be just as good a bard as the human, half-elf, or gnome would be. The supposed balance of races in 3E is a fallacy. They're certainly close to one another in general effectiveness and power, but barely, and typically just when they're filling the roles they are best-suited to.


Really, it's just a wierd taboo that sticks around for no good reason. The only advantage to keeping that taboo is it makes things marginally more difficult for munchkin powergamers to abuse to the max. Except, y'know, there are all kinds of other races, classes, and feats in official D&D products these days that can easily be broken in much the same manner by anyone halfway-determined. :\


Which, again, is why it's a stupid and useless taboo. Unless a DM bans a whole lotta stuff outright, his or her game will still be quite break-able and abuse-able by munchkins and powergamers, so why bother with useless, arbitrary restrictions? If the DM doesn't want X type of advantage to be available in his or her game, then he'll ban it.

There's no need to arbitrarily gimp your design decisions when those restrictions have already been bent, twisted, and outright broken sometimes by the officials at Wizards of the Coast. Even if they do rabidly insist that you follow the guidelines they sometimes ignore.

And powergaming isn't always a bad thing, it's just bad in some groups, anyhow. Cutting loose with a crazy-strong combo can be fun, especially since you're in the DM's sandbox, and he can play that way too, only the DM has all the cool toys. :p



As long as you keep your rules material objectively balanced, it shouldn't be a problem.

Frex, in my Aurelia homebrew, all the races (except dwarves) are more powerful (yes, even kobolds are a very effective LA+0 in Aurelia), and several of them have mental ability score boosts, uneven ability scores, or racial boosts to spellcasting in one way or another. Humans get a bonus feat at 1st and every 9 levels after that, plus their extra skill points and a racial bonus to any one skill of their choice. Most flexible race in Aurelia.

Elves have +2 Dex and Cha, -2 Str and Con, along with a handful of nice racial traits, and Sorcerer is their favored class in Aurelia (Elves ARE magic, duh!). :D But then, Aurelian Gnomes have a racial bonus with all spellcasting, and get +2 Int but -2 Str and Wis, among other racial traits. While Celestri have +2 to Wis and Cha, but -2 to Str and Con, and other stuff. Orcs have +4 Str and +2 Con, with -2 Int, Wis, and Cha, plus a few lesser racial traits. Some of the other races have a Level Adjustment and/or a few racial hit dice, but most of the Aurelian standard races are LA+0 with no racial HD.

But generally, since there are so many races, and several of them have spellcasting boosts from greater mental stats or other stuff, no one race is definitively 'the best'. Gnomes are certainly quite good at spellcasting, particularly wizardry, but only mediocre divine casters, and they're physically disadvantageous, though they do get a few racial traits that kinda help gnomish warriors (so there is some reason to play a gnomish fighter or whatnot, just not as good a reason to play a human fighter). Yet the races have obvious advantages and disadvantages, and that's perfectly fine.

Of course a smart race is going to make the best wizards, and of course strong races are going to make the best melee warriors, but that doesn't mean having such races in the game is badwrongfun and should be banzzored. The core rules already have dwarves and half-orcs as the best melee folks, humans a close third, and everyone else a distant fourth. And they have elves and halflings as they best ranged combatants, humans a close third, everyone else a distant fourth. And humans as the best spellcasters in the core rules. Even though, y'know, elves and gnomes are supposed to be rather magical and smart and stuff. But they're not. :\

You wanna play the best wizard around in Aurelia, you'll probably be playing a Gnome, but you'll still have a few less feats and less multiclassing flexibility than a Human, and lower Will saves, less melee strength, much lower carrying capacity, and the drawback of being easily grappled; at least until you learn Freedom of Movement, but you might have to cast it a lot to stay safe. Doesn't help you that Aurelian Ogres have springy legs and are good jumpers, so you may have to Fly or Levitate higher than usual to stay out of melee/aerial-snatch-and-bodyslam reach. But hey, your spells will be slightly harder to resist, and you'll have maybe 1-3 extra spell slots eventually.
 

Moon-Lancer said:
i see your point. although i don't understand Why is con not taken under this consideration dwarves? shouldn't they get a -2 to wis as well? cha is a weaker stat even if its used as a caster, because wis is also used for casters but it gives a +1 on will saves as well. The balance still doesen't add up when you look at all the races. a halfing doesent give up anything, nor do gnomes, but elves and halforcs seem to give up alot. elves giving up the very thing that keeps a character alive in the first place, and halforcs for giving up two stats essentially trapping them in a fighter role. if it was just one, they could be effective clerics or sorcerers, depending.
Ah, dwarves are just broken in their stat adjusts, it is true. I suggest giving them the penalty to Dex instead of Cha. There actually is a dwarf subrace that does that, as a matter of fact. And it fits well as an explanation of why they wear heavy armour so much!
 

Yeah. You can't look at the Dwarf as a good example of a balanced race... nor should you look at the Half-Elf, for the opposite reason.

Cheers, -- N
 

Moon-Lancer said:
Lets say I make a race with a +2 to cha without a negative stat to go along with it. cha is considered to be the weakest stat isn't it?
Sorry, mate, but Cha is one of the strongest stats: Knights, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerors, Bards, and Clerics all benefit immediately and directly from good Cha. +2 Cha should be balanced by -2 to one or two other stats (a -2 Str would not balance, but -2 Con would).
 

although i really do think cha is still a pity stat, i thought up something else for the half-elves with the help of these threads. thanks.
 
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Quartz said:
Sorry, mate, but Cha is one of the strongest stats: Knights, Paladins, Rangers, Sorcerors, Bards, and Clerics all benefit immediately and directly from good Cha. +2 Cha should be balanced by -2 to one or two other stats (a -2 Str would not balance, but -2 Con would).

How does the Ranger benefit? his spellcasting is Wis not Cha and I don't see anything else . . . wild empathy but that's just like any other skill.
 

Not only that, but you could make a list of which stats benefit which classes, and charisma still turns up low:

Strength benefits: fighters, paladins, monks and barbarians strongly, rangers, clerics and rogues moderately, bards and druids weakly, wizards and sorcerors not at all

Dexterity benefits: rogues and rangers strongly, everyone else moderately except for heavily armored characters and even that can be eventually overridden

Constitution benefits: everyone strongly

Intelligence benefits: wizards and rogues strongly, bards moderately, everyone else moderately to weakly depending on build

Wisdom benefits: clerics, monks and druids strongly, everyone else moderately to strongly

Charisma benefits: sorcerors, bards and paladins strongly; clerics, rangers and rogues weakly, everyone else not much at all
 

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