20 vs 18

[circadianwolf]

More specifically, a V-shaped class has two primary attack stats (e.g. Warlock: Con and Cha) and one secondary rider stat (Warlock: Int), while an A-shaped class has one primary attack stat (e.g. Sorcerer: Cha) and two (or more) secondary rider stats (Sorcerer: Dex and Str).

 

[Bold or Stupid]

V shaped class - has two attack attributes and one secondary attribute (Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Warlock).

A shaped class - has one attack attribute then a choice of secondary attributes, normally two in the initial write up but several classes have more now.

 

[Jhaelen]

So the question is: is the 20 (post-racial) better enough to justify its cost.

Usually, it isn't.

This.

 

[CovertOps]

20 (post-racial) is certainly better than 18 (post-racial), but it's very expensive in terms of what it means for all your other stats. So the question is: is the 20 (post-racial) better enough to justify its cost.

Usually, it isn't. Most classes derive enough benefit from secondary stats that it's better to not skimp.

Some PCs don't much care about their secondary stats, like a Tome of Readiness Wizard, or certain Warlock builds, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

Cheers, -- N

This (seconded) with a caveat. I agree with the poster above that said any class that is main stat Dex/Int can build a 20 safely. Examples: Rogue, Archer Ranger, Wizard, Swordmage, etc. Dex/Int builds get +1 to: Hit, Damage, AC, Reflex, (Initiative-Dex only).

 

[Mapache]

I'm going to disagree with most posters, and say you should almost always take the 20. It's +1 attack and +1 damage over an 18 on every single attack you will make with your character ever (and if you're a V-shaped class, you should pick one attribute and ignore the other, so it's still true). It lets you put out 10% more status effects and deal 20% more damage than the guy with an 18, and the harder the fight, the better your bonus is percentage-wise.

Let's say there was a feat that gave you an unconditional +1 attack and +1 damage. What would you possibly take over it? A feat that gives you +1 to a NAD (that's only targeted sometimes) and that makes the riders on a few of your powers slightly better? No. If you're in light armor and your secondary stat is also your armor stat and it also adds to your damage, then it may be worth going for 16+2/16+2 instead of 18+2/14+2, but pretty much everyone else should take that 20 and rock out with it.

 

[Nifft]

Let's say there was a feat that gave you an unconditional +1 attack and +1 damage. What would you possibly take over it?

A feat that lets me unconditionally crit on a 19.

Secondary (and sometimes tertiary) stats matter.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dice4Hire]

Let's say there was a feat that gave you an unconditional +1 attack and +1 damage. What would you possibly take over it?

Does this feat also probably cost me a surge or two? And a -1 or -2 on a NAD? Does it prevent me from taking an armor proficiency? Or from qualifying for some feats? Or drop my AC by a point or two?

Not looking so good anymore, is it?

*Yes, not all will apply depending on the stat, but some will in every case

 

[Elric]

Avengers are penalized approximately the same as everyone else for having a lower stat. A lot of their damage comes from accuracy. The 20 stat still helps a lot.

The point I was trying to make is that an Avenger with a 50% single swing chance to hit with an 18 stat will with Oath of Emnity hit 69.75% of the time with a 16 stat, and 79.75% of the time with a 20 stat. He still gains +2 to hit and +2 damage with the 20 stat over the 16 stat as other PCs. But he's hitting a devastating 80% of the time. He rarely wastes Encounter and Daily powers. Just like the Ranger rarely wastes his Quarry damage.

An Avenger gains less from an increase in to-hit than a typical character when the Avenger's to-hit chance on each roll is above 50% and gains more from an increase in to-hit when the Avenger's hit chance on each roll is below 50%.

Showing the math, an Avenger’s chance to hit with one of the two attacks is 2*H – H^2, so the derivative is 2-2H. This is above 1 (the normal derivative) when H<0.5 and is less than 1 when H>0.5. With the Expertise feats in existence, most characters should hit above 50% of the time throughout their career with an 18-stat (though this could vary greatly depending on the level relative to the player of typical monsters), so to-hit bonuses for Avengers will be less valuable.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Does this feat also probably cost me a surge or two? And a -1 or -2 on a NAD? Does it prevent me from taking an armor proficiency? Or from qualifying for some feats? Or drop my AC by a point or two?

Not looking so good anymore, is it?

*Yes, not all will apply depending on the stat, but some will in every case

Your point is sort of...well, his point really. Except for the NAD part.

Take, for example, two Dragonborn Sorcerers that are going CHA/STR for the Dragon Magic build. One goes with an 18 CHA and the other goes with a 20 CHA (post-racial). Now, if the other base scores are all 10's and an 8, then the Dragonborn with the 20 has a 12 STR 6 points left to spend. The Dragonborn with the 18 post racial also has the 12 STR and 13 points to spend. Now, let's see how this plays out:

20 CHA Dragonborn:
Starts with +5 to attack, damage, NAD's and should qualify for all CHA feat requirements.
Can spend up to 5 points increasing STR (the secondary stat) to a 16 (post-racial). This means only a +3 to Fort and +5 bonus damage from Dragonic Power.
This will also apply to riders for many powers like Sudden Scales or Poisonous Exhalation.
The remaining 1 point is not enough to get a bonus of +1 for any stat, so let's assign it to CON to at least get an extra HP.
Alternatively, we can assign 2 points to STR to increase it to a 14. It's still a +2 to everything, but won't increase to +3 until 8th level at the earliest.
Dragonbreath also loses accuracy since it must be based on STR, DEX or CON...there is a feat that will let you use your highest stat (CHA) for attack and damage rolls though.
Then you can assign 2 points to CON to increase it to a 12, gaining you two HP and 1 surge. No increase in NADs though. And then you can increase DEX by 2 to get a +1 to Reflex.
Potential problems here though are that this build cannot get Sorcerer Implement Expertise with the tier stat increases. You would either have to drop CON to an 11 to get a 13 starting DEX, and thus lose a surge for 4 levels and be down an HP, or decrease STR some. The latter would probably be worse.
Dropping CON to an 11 is problamatic too though, because it means you don't get the 13 CON needed for Hide or Chainmail until 21st level (again, unless you sacrifice an increase to one of your main two stats). This can be a problem because you're going to lag behind in the AC department due to the lower STR.

18 CHA Dragonborn:
The 18 CHA gets you a +4 to attack, damage and Will, which is a decrease of 1.
With 13 points to play with, there are a lot more options here.
A great one would be going with an 18 STR (post racial), as opposed to the 16 max available with the 20 CHA build. This will get you +6 damage (no overall change since you get +1 from Draconic Power to offset the loss of 1 damage from CHA), +4 to AC (increase of +1) and +4 to Fort (increase of +1). In addition, all STR riders on powers are increased by +1.
With your remaining points you can do something like put a 13 in DEX (+1 to REF) and an 11 in CON or INT.
The 13 in DEX might not seem like much, but it will keep your third NAD a little higher and ultimately allow you to get Sorcerer Implement Expertise. It can also allow you to qualify for some additional DEX based feats compared to the other build.
The 11 CON still allows you to get the 13 in Epic if you want to up your AC,
by going with heavier armor. Hide or Chain are no longer quite as necessary though, since Leather armor proficiency would be sufficient due to the +4 AC from STR.
So you can dump the 11 into INT if you want, and it will give you access to a couple of INT-based feats as well.
Also, while your damage with Dragonbreath will suck, you'll at least be hitting with it...which is useful because now instead of spending a feat to make it more accurate, you can spend a feat to make it an Arcane Power, thus giving you access to your implement enhancement bonus and Draconic Power damage increase.

Alternatively, you can take a 16 (post-racial) in STR like the first build, but now you have additional points to spend on a different stat layout.
One option would be a 14 CON and 13 DEX. You can qualify for Hide or Chain immediately now, get 2 surges and +4 HP, get the +1 to REF and still qualify for Sorcerer Implement Expertise.
Or you could even go with a 15 in DEX, 11 in CON. While seemingly an odd build, this would allow you to do something interesting like take Arcane Implement Proficiency Heavy Blade, multiclass or Hybrid Fighter and eventually qualify for HBO and Heavy Blade Mastery, while also having an excellent REF (even qualifying for things like Scale or Shield specialization if you want). An odd choice, sure, but perfectly viable with this stat layout, and flat out IMPOSSIBLE with a 20 (post racial) primary.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

it depends on group layout and kind of encounters...

the more difficult a single encounter and the lower the number of encounters is, a 20 in an attack stat sounds better and better, as staying alive is a matter of dropping a foe fast enough...

on more numerous lowerlevel encounters, hitting is less problematic and avoiding hits and the chance that your defense increases have an actual effect becomes higher...

dropping a single foe one or two foes faster gets more and more insignificant and the extra one or two surges help...