D&D 5E (2014) 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[EzekielRaiden]

Maybe you need to come to grips with the fact 5e just isnt that good.

Is this sarcasm? Because I feel I have done a pretty thorough job of demonstrating just how little I think of most of 5e's design.

 

[Scribe]

Is this sarcasm? Because I feel I have done a pretty thorough job of demonstrating just how little I think of most of 5e's design.

My man, then move on to better games, and cultivate it in your community if you can. Wizards, 5.5, does not deserve your attention.

 

[Zardnaar]

One campaign meant to be a long-runner, but the DM had to stop because of an extremely serious family matter that was much more important than continuing to run that game. One of the best DMs I've ever had, with a great group. That was back in 2014; the rest below happened after this.

Three single-adventure campaigns. One I had hoped might run longer, but the DM felt called to political activism at the time and thus felt he couldn't continue focusing on D&D stuff. The second was one I had personally pulled together from various people on forums I was a member of, but sadly that group didn't gel together and we split as soon as that first adventure ended, probably for the best. Third was a lighthearted parody run by @MichaelSomething for some folks here on ENWorld.

Three attempts that never fully took off. One was a PbP game that had some players ghost midway through, one was a Gardmore Abbey game that didn't end up working out a few weeks in, and one had the only 4e DM I've ever had that I did not actually get along with, so I chose to bow out.

When I say I really, truly tried to find a long-runner 4e game, I meant it. I've intentionally avoided spoilers for Zeitgeist, for example, even if it's over a decade old now, because there's always the chance that I might find a 4e group interested in it.

All good it happens. Our sessions are shorter now but this week there's 3 if them.

I pulled the plug I'm one campaign last year C&C one is a year+. People didn't gel.

Generally rotate a lot over the years. 3.5 to Pathfinder, Star Wars Saga Edition to 2E to OSR to 5E. Star Wars D6 for short games.

 

[Lord Twig]

Is this sarcasm? Because I feel I have done a pretty thorough job of demonstrating just how little I think of most of 5e's design.

Ah, there it is. For all the criticism that people get for not liking 4e, and being accused of dumping on anything 4e related, here you are dumping on 5e and trying to tear it down because you don't like it. Maybe because it supplanted 4e, which is a game you, apparently, liked a lot? Are you now doing what those who liked 3.x and dumped on 4e did?

I honestly don't know, and would be genuinely interested in hearing what your motivation is to post (a lot of posts) in a thread about 5e when you don't even like the system.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Ah, there it is. For all the criticism that people get for not liking 4e, and being accused of dumping on anything 4e related, here you are dumping on 5e and trying to tear it down because you don't like it. Maybe because it supplanted 4e, which is a game you, apparently, liked a lot? Are you now doing what those who liked 3.x and dumped on 4e did?

I honestly don't know, and would be genuinely interested in hearing what your motivation is to post (a lot of posts) in a thread about 5e when you don't even like the system.

Nobody told the 4e critics that it wasn't possible to not enjoy 4e.

Nobody acts like 5e doesn't even deserve to be called "D&D." They'd be laughed out of the room, even by me.

Nobody makes up fictional rule after fictional rule to lambast 5e and show how god-awful it must be, despite such rules being oftentimes literally the antithesis of the written text.

I, personally, try to be respectful to others preferences--so long as those preferences are not predicated on "two for me, none for you" type things, since I have taken issue with preferences that appeared so in this thread--while critiquing design. And I've taken plenty of shots at 5e's design. I've never, ever, hidden my criticisms of 5e. I am well known on this forum as a critic thereof, and for being someone who thinks 4e got an utterly and objectively unfair "review" from a lot of people. (Note the quotes. Plenty of people who criticized 4e never even read it.)

So...no. I'm not "doing what those who liked 3.x and dumped on 4e did." As for why I do it? Because this is the only way I get to talk about D&D at all. Because I enjoy engaging with others and learning from their perspectives, even if I ultimately disagree with those perspectives. Because, in sifting through the dross, I occasionally find a nugget of gold. Because I believe that, in contributing to the criticism of those parts of 5e I dislike, I can contribute to possible change; further, because I believe that it is better to try to pursue possible change even if I might fail, than it is to throw up my hands and say "nothing can be done!", whether that be in TTRPGs or in politics or in religion (because believe me, I have plenty of criticisms of things people of my overall religious group have done!) or in anything really.

Now. What is the point of your argument, here? Because it seems to me that it is doing up to three things:

1. "Look at how awful this person is. Clearly their arguments aren't worth listening to." That's ad hominem, and I should think that if you were going to moralize at me, you'd avoid using such a tactic in the very same breath.
2. "Aha, I caught you! Trying to sneak your way past the defenses? Well it isn't gonna work!" Which, as noted, is ridiculous because I've never made even the slightest effort to conceal my criticism of 5e--not only do I see no point, I see plenty of point in NOT concealing that. Plus...it's not "a" thread. It's a bazillion.
3. "Nobody who doesn't like something should be allowed to talk about it." Which...would be rather a spicy argument, if you are in fact making it. But that does seem to be the logical consequence of your position: folks who don't like something shouldn't participate in discussion about it. If you don't like something more than you dislike it, it's inappropriate for you to speak up.

Oh, and with the lovely extra spicy bit that this also means I wouldn't be allowed to participate in a thread that draws direct and explicit comparisons to something I do quite love (despite being aware of various, sometimes serious, flaws therein!), because that thread is also about something I don't like. So now, it wouldn't just be that I'm not allowed to talk about things I don't like, but specifically folks who don't like 4e and do like 5e are allowed to talk about 4e. Which, again if you're making the argument that I shouldn't talk about things I don't like, but the OP and several posters even on the very first page are well within their rights to talk about things they don't like, then it begs the question why this is acceptable for 5e fans to do, but not acceptable for 4e fans to do.

 

[Remathilis]

3. "Nobody who doesn't like something should be allowed to talk about it." Which...would be rather a spicy argument, if you are in fact making it. But that does seem to be the logical consequence of your position: folks who don't like something shouldn't participate in discussion about it. If you don't like something more than you dislike it, it's inappropriate for you to speak up.

This is not a defense of Lord Twig, but a commentary on this particular point.

This board is way too balkanized. And everyone (even myself) is guilty of it.

We don't act like D&D players. We act like 2014 players, 2024 players, Level Up players, Shadowdark players, 4e players, Pathfinder players, OSR players, etc etc. And we fight like we are going to convert everyone else to our preferred version and thus our team wins. If I can just show you how wrong your beliefs are, you'll see the wisdom and join my side. Thus, we fight for every inch of land in this evangelical war. And most of the time, the fights are exactly to highlight why MY interpretation is correct, and YOURS is inaccurate.

Half the D&D 2024 threads are full of people who don't play 24, won't buy 24, haven't kept up with the 24 changes, but sure as hell have opinions on 24. The same is and was true of 4e. Of OSR games. You get the idea. Nothing generates content like controversy and the quickest way to do that is criticism.

So yeah, I can see why people people opt for a "if you don't like it, don't talk about it" take. Because defending what you like day after day is tiring. And it's not like we're having overly new arguments. We're still arguing about martials vs casters, evil humanoids, sport vs war, and the nature of HP. And now we all have a game or edition that supports our vision, so we're all right and all wrong at the same time.

I dunno, I just wish somehow there was more about what united us as "D&D players" less about why my version is superior to yours. Whatever happened to "it's all D&D"?

Rant over. Continue with your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Because defending what you like day after day is tiring.

Oh, I wouldn't know anything about what that is like. At all.

I'm sorry, it's just really hard to feel at all moved by this position, given how I've needed to do that for the past 16+ years. I've made this very point in the past, and have been told, in not so many words, "that's rough, buddy."

 

[Remathilis]

Oh, I wouldn't know anything about what that is like. At all.

I'm sorry, it's just really hard to feel at all moved by this position, given how I've needed to do that for the past 16+ years. I've made this very point in the past, and have been told, in not so many words, "that's rough, buddy."

Hey, I'm empathizing. I get it. I'm guilty of defending 5e and ruthlessly attacking OSR games. And I'm not calling you out. I'm suggesting everyone here could be doing more to make the community inclusive. But I don't think we will.

 

[Scribe]

We don't act like D&D players. We act like 2014 players, 2024 players, Level Up players, Shadowdark players, 4e players, Pathfinder players, OSR players, etc etc. And we fight like we are going to convert everyone else to our preferred version and thus our team wins. If I can just show you how wrong your beliefs are, you'll see the wisdom and join my side. Thus, we fight for every inch of land in this evangelical war. And most of the time, the fights are exactly to highlight why MY interpretation is correct, and YOURS is inaccurate.

 

[MichaelSomething]

One campaign meant to be a long-runner, but the DM had to stop because of an extremely serious family matter that was much more important than continuing to run that game. One of the best DMs I've ever had, with a great group. That was back in 2014; the rest below happened after this.

Three single-adventure campaigns. One I had hoped might run longer, but the DM felt called to political activism at the time and thus felt he couldn't continue focusing on D&D stuff. The second was one I had personally pulled together from various people on forums I was a member of, but sadly that group didn't gel together and we split as soon as that first adventure ended, probably for the best. Third was a lighthearted parody run by @MichaelSomething for some folks here on ENWorld.

Three attempts that never fully took off. One was a PbP game that had some players ghost midway through, one was a Gardmore Abbey game that didn't end up working out a few weeks in, and one had the only 4e DM I've ever had that I did not actually get along with, so I chose to bow out.

When I say I really, truly tried to find a long-runner 4e game, I meant it. I've intentionally avoided spoilers for Zeitgeist, for example, even if it's over a decade old now, because there's always the chance that I might find a 4e group interested in it.

I already have a regular group so more adventures around ENcity arn't in the cards. Even if it was, 4E isn't the most in demand game in these parts.
Even Start Playing has few options for 4E! (but one game is close to starting at time of this posting)

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