D&D 5E (2024) 2024 Gladiator: The Narrative Dissonance

[Distracted DM]

Anything that puts them closer to an appropriately-leveled PC is worth looking at in my book.

Can you elaborate on that?

A principle I will fight as much as I need to in my own games.

Yeah it's a toughie when it's baked into the system like that. How do you fight it? Any examples? I very much appreciate your insights on the matter!

 

[DEFCON 1]

The entire Leveled Class System is Narrative Dissonance. PCs can go from Level 1 to Level 5 after like two modules that take place over like two weeks of in-game time... and now have 5 times the hit points and their abilities multiply five-fold. And THAT doesn't cause players to go "What a minute! What's going on here?!?" Let alone the comparison of a Level 1 character and a Level 20 character, which can be gained after merely like a couple years of adventuring.

At that point none of them should be complaining that their humanoid opponents seem out of whack "realistically" too.

People want the board game of D&D to be a fun board game in and of itself. And that means separating the board game from the story in most places because quality gaming and realistic narrative almost never align. Because no one wants to die from a single solid hit from a greataxe or a pistol, which is what most "realistic" combats would normally see.

 

[Stalker0]

I see where you're coming from, but that's assuming that PCs and NPCs are built with the same rules again- which they are not. And we touch on the "levels aren't a real thing in the world... but would I know that that gladiator is more powerful than that veteran? What separates them? What about my paladin as opposed to that knight?" Well there are some niche character features that can inform a PC of the target's AC, HP, CR, etc... but I'd prefer to make that some knowledge that can be attained by encountering the NPC in question, whether by fight, by demonstration, or by discussion ("can you tell he's a dangerous opponent by the way he holds himself?").

I think this is the crux of the matter, and it appears that my players (in two different groups no less) really look at "number of attacks" as a major signifier of a fighter's skill (and therefore power).

So when they see a fighter get 3 attacks in a round, that signals to them that this guy is a majorly skilled powerhouse fighter, a rare specimen, rather than "ye old fighter X"

I think its an interesting test if I just changed it to 2 attacks but upped the damage to keep the average the same, and see if I get the same kind of reaction.

 

[NotAYakk]

Level 11 Fighter
20 con 20 strength 14 dex
Toughness feat

Studded Leather, Shield (16 AC) (crappy gear)

HP: 11d10 (70) + 22 (tough) + 55 (con) = 147
Second Wind: 1d10+11 (16.5 HP)

Dueling figthing style.
Polearm Master
Subclass Feature: Parry (+4 AC as reaction)
Subclass Feature: Shield Bash
Subclass Feature: Advantage vs Fear

Attacks: +9 to hit, 1d6+7 (10.5) (spear) x3
Bonus: +9 to hit, 1d4+7 (9.5) x1

DPR: ~41 at +9 accuracy

vs Gladiator:
112 HP, 16 AC, +3 Parry, 33 DPR

A CR X monster can be very roughly compared with a Level 2X+1 PC

Guard CR 1/8 - L 0 PC
Goblin CR 1/4 - L 1 PC
Orc CR 1/2 - L 2 PC
Bugbear CR 1 - L 3 PC
Berserker CR 2 - L 5 PC
Knight/Veteran CR 3 - L 7 PC
Gladiator CR 5 - L 11 PC
Blackguard CR 8 - L 17 PC
Champion CR 9 - L 19 PC
Warlord CR 12 - L 25 PC

Look at the XP budget of a Medium to Hard monster; it (very roughly) lines up.

Anyhow, this gives you a short-hand for how to describe the skills of an NPC foe.

L 1-4 are "Local Heroes" - contenders for the toughest person in a village, town or small region.
L 5-10 are "Heroes of the Realm" - notable heroes in a medium-sized kingdom.
L 11-16 are "Masters of the Realm" - contenders for the toughest people in a medium-sized kingdom.
L 17-20 are "Masters of the World" - contenders for the toughest people world-wide.

So your "Gladiator" is a Gladiator champion (or their peers) in a regional hub. Undefeated for 5 years!

If you are at the center of a huge empire, it might be the Champion instead.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I view (Warrior) Veterans as being very tough, they're certainly more powerful than a 3rd level fighter despite being CR 3. They're probably more in line with a 5th level fighter.

But that's the thing, they're NPCs they don't have all the extra abilities PCs get like Mastery options and Action Surge and the ability to reliably heal themselves. They're meant to be fought in one encounter and not be too complex to run.

 

[Stormonu]

Agreed. I'd rather put in the work and have NPCs that don't have weird mechanics PCs can't match (and vice versa, of course).

So, no Medusas?

 

[John R Davis]

So, no Medusas?

.. and weird npcs for the winz. Keep them pesky PCs on their toes

 

[Sorinth]

If you want a house rule to explain the HP bloat tell your PCs they can take the Tough feat multiple times and have it stack. It's doubtful the players would ever take you up on it, and won't break the game even if they did, but it does provide that in game mechanical a rational for how they got those HP, they spent all their ASIs on it.

For example if we assume the Gladiator is a level 8 character because of the +3 prof bonus with a d10 hit die and took the Tough feat with every ASI + as the Origin feat they'd end up with 116 HP which is actually more then the base 112 from the stat block.

EDIT: And that's not including the bonus level 6 fighter ASI

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, no Medusas?

PCs can cast Flesh to Stone. There's a Medusa heritage in Level Up too.

 

[Stormonu]

PCs can cast Flesh to Stone. There's a Medusa heritage in Level Up too.

Not the same thing. Medusa can do it at will. PCs cannot.