D&D 5E (2024) 2024 Gladiator: The Narrative Dissonance

[Micah Sweet]

True! But it's also easy enough to say, "And seeking out that training is beyond the scope of this campaign". Heck, sometimes you CAN find a way to give them similar abilities, if and when it seems appropriate. Certainly a Gladiator's "Three Spear Attacks" is attainable for a Fighter - but they've got better options to focus their training on.

My campaigns don't really have that kind of "beyond the scope", but I read you.

 

[Micah Sweet]

For sure.

I’ve been leaning into LitRPG and progression fantasy tropes in my D&D games over the last 5 years or so. My overarching D&D multiverse has thousands of classes, most of which can be acquired through a combination of classes levels, feats, and special narrative achievements, which trigger class upgrades and consolidations.

Sounds amazing! That's the dream.

 

[Sorinth]

Ok, so in theory then anyone could learn any ability if they had the appropriate type of experience. Is that right? What if the NPC also got their experience from fighting monsters? What if the PC learns through training and study, at least in part?

Yes if you want your PC to retire from adventuring and spend the next 5 years training sure go ahead, in the meantime roll up a new character and let's continue the current campaign we are in. Or find or create a homebrew class/subclass/feat for whatever it is and if it's balanced it will be allowed.

And maybe it's just me but most of my adventurer-style NPCs are going to adhere much closer to the PC rules, especially the iconic class/subclass feature. If I was making a fighter for a rival adventuring group I probably would give them Action Surge, Second Wind, Weapon Masteries, etc... and not use the Gladiator stat block.

What's ironic about the whole if an NPC can do something the PC needs to have a way of doing the exact same thing is that it encourages providing Trap-options for PCs. As I mentioned earlier in the thread you can very easily match the HP bloat of these type of NPCs by allowing the Tough Feat to be taken multiple times, but frankly that's a trap option if made available to PCs. But for NPCs giving them trap options will often make sense.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes if you want your PC to retire from adventuring and spend the next 5 years training sure go ahead, in the meantime roll up a new character and let's continue the current campaign we are in. Or find or create a homebrew class/subclass/feat for whatever it is and if it's balanced it will be allowed.

And maybe it's just me but most of my adventurer-style NPCs are going to adhere much closer to the PC rules, especially the iconic class/subclass feature. If I was making a fighter for a rival adventuring group I probably would give them Action Surge, Second Wind, Weapon Masteries, etc... and not use the Gladiator stat block.

What's ironic about the whole if an NPC can do something the PC needs to have a way of doing the exact same thing is that it encourages providing Trap-options for PCs. As I mentioned earlier in the thread you can very easily match the HP bloat of these type of NPCs by allowing the Tough Feat to be taken multiple times, but frankly that's a trap option if made available to PCs. But for NPCs giving them trap options will often make sense.

My concerns are always going to prioritize setting logic over mechanical balance.

 

[Sorinth]

My concerns are always going to prioritize setting logic over mechanical balance.

Ok, and how is that not the case with what I said?

 

[NotAYakk]

I don't get it.

I showed how the Gladiator is weaker than a mediocre level 11 Fighter.

Is the problem that the CR 5 makes you think "this is level 5"?

Map CR X to Level 2X+1, and accept the character is a weak character of that level. And has a strange subclass and some strange feats and boons.

The Gladiator is a weak level 11 fighter-type, and nothing it does is really outside of gamut for a level 11 fighter-type.

The Champion is a weak level 19 fighter-type.

Sometimes abilities like second wind and rage half damage are included in their statblock as HP to simplify things.

Don't narrate them as level 5 fighters who are over powered, because they really aren't.

But people keep on talking about the Gladiator as if it was breaking verisimilitude?

 

[TwoSix]

Is the problem that the CR 5 makes you think "this is level 5"?

I think this is a classic 3e-ism that a lot of players haven't fully done a reset of in their narratives.

Definitely not uncommon if you played a lot of 3e; to this day I have several DMs that still call for Listen checks and Knowledge(arcana) checks.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Ok, and how is that not the case with what I said?

Your discussion of trap options. To me, the most important thing is provide adequate simulation of the in-fiction effect. If doing so results in a less fun experience, then the player should avoid going through the in-fiction process to acquire that effect.

Of course, generally speaking I would want to find a way to make that in-fiction process fun anyway.

 

[Sorinth]

Your discussion of trap options. To me, the most important thing is provide adequate simulation of the in-fiction effect. If doing so results in a less fun experience, then the player should avoid going through the in-fiction process to acquire that effect.

Of course, generally speaking I would want to find a way to make that in-fiction process fun anyway.

It's impossible to provide an adequate simulation of everything that is theoretically possible because that's infinite. If there's specific things a player wants then it can be homebrewed and would need to be fun and balanced against other features. Creating a trap options for PCs just because an NPC has something is the worst of both worlds.

 

[James Gasik]

I think this is a classic 3e-ism that a lot of players haven't fully done a reset of in their narratives.

Definitely not uncommon if you played a lot of 3e; to this day I have several DMs that still call for Listen checks and Knowledge(arcana) checks.

Guilty about the checks. I'm still occasionally reminded by my players that there is no Engineering skill, and they tease me when I ask them to make a Reflex or Will save. : (