D&D (2024) 2024 Player's Handbook Reveal: "New Wizard"

"The paramount collector of spells."

Open your spellbooks, everybody. Today we get a Wizard video.


The last version of the class was in the UA Playtest 7 package (PT7). It's not clear how much they'll say here. Of the base class, I am hoping that they have recanted the level 5 ability, Memorize Spell (or perhaps shifted it to needing a short rest). They've said that the PHB will get clearer rules for how illusions work -- maybe they'll talk about that? Other than that, I think the most they can do is show us some revised spells: Will the revised version of Counterspell be kept? Any surprise Necromancy reveals? Let's find out.

OVERVIEW
  • "the paramount collector of spells": "many" of new spells are for the wizard.
  • As in PT7: cantrip change after long rest (level 1); scholar -- expertise in an academic field (at 2)
  • NO MENTION OF ARCANE RECOVERY
  • NEW: Ritual Adept broken out as a new class feature. They can cast spells in their spellbook, as before, but here ID'd as a new feature.
  • NEW: Memorize Spell at 5: you can swap a spell after short rest.
  • Each subclass gets a new version of Savant: free spells in spellbook of preferred school. 2 free spells of favored class, and a new spell for each spell level (so every 2 levels, as in the playtest. This isn't what is said in the video, but has been corrected elsewhere.
SUBCLASSES
Abjurer
  • new abjuration spells feeds back onto how subclass functions.
  • NEW: Arcane Ward at 3: resistance, immunity applied before the Arcane Ward.
  • NEW: Projected Ward a 6: your friend's resistance is applied before the ward for them.
  • NEW: Spell breaker at level 10: Counterspell and Dispell Magic are both prepared (PT7 did not include Counterspell). Dispell Magic is a bonus action.
Diviner
  • NEW: Third Eye at 10. As in PT7, bonus action to activate; 120' darkvision, see invisibility. NO MENTION of Greater Comprehension ("read any language")
Evoker -- "all about bringing the boom"
  • As in PT7: Potent Cantrip at 3 applies to cantrips both with a saving throw or an attack roll.
Illusionist -- "we felt that the subclass needed more" (YAY)
  • NEW: Improved Illusions at level 3:
    • cast illusion spells with no verbal components. (FUN)
    • illusions with range with at least 10' is increased to 60' (no-- by 60' to 70').
    • you get minor illusion cantrip, with both visual and audible
    • you cast minor illusion as a bonus action.
  • NEW: Phantasmal Creatures
    • summon beast and summon fey spells always prepared. These MAY BE changed from conjuration to Illusion, and the illusory version can be cast without expending a spell slot, but the summoned version, only with half the hit points. ONCE PER DAY.
    • illusions can step on a trap to set it off (?!)
    • (replacing Malleable Illusions, which I complained about here. This is so exciting.)
  • NEW: Illusory Self triggered by you being hit by an attack (not when you are targeted). As in PT7, you can get more uses by giving up a spell slot of level 2+.
SPECIFIC SPELLS
  • NEW: school shift to Abjuration: no examples
  • Counterspell as in PT7.
  • GUIDANCE ON ILLUSIONS in Rules Glossary. E.g. How are they affected by environment?
    • spell descriptions also clarified. Rules Glossary to be discussed in future video (also conditions, areas of effects, guidance on teleportation, telepathy, "
  • "being dead" to be discussed in Cleric Video. Tease...
So this gave much more than I was expecting, and it looks amazing. Playing an illusionist will now be much more clearly not a "mother may I?" situation, which (I feel) has long been the case. I think I got most of what I'd asked for in the PT feedback.
 

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The majority of characters have Darkvision anyway. If they already have it (because they aren't humans) then no it doesn't. Not even close at first level.

Only Drow, Dueregar and Sverfneblin get darkvision equal to a Shadow Sorcerer (and Twilight Clerics which are even better yet). You mentioned how great it was to have a familiar with 120' darkvision, hence the reason I pointed it out.


I'm not saying that Shield is the best first level spell for a wizard. I'm saying that Shield is comparable to Strength of the Grave for a first level wizard. If you think that Shield is not the best way of using a first level spell slot for a wizard I'd agree. And if Shield is about as strong as Strength of the Grave that means that Strength of the Grave is also not worth a first level spell slot.

But it isn't as strong at 1st level. It is much weaker, especially if not paired with Mage Armor.

Forget slots for a moment, give a first level unarmored character one use of shield or one use of Strength of the Grave with a +5 save and the second example will generally be more survivable. This is not true at higher levels where multiattack comes into play and where damage is higher, but it is true at 1st level (the level we are talking about).

Moreover this is the point - the 1st level Sorcerer can have the benifits of a shield (actually better than the benefits of one casting) without spending a slot or even having that spell prepared.


Shield even cast as shield (not as another first level spell on the grounds that prevention is better than cure)

Prevention is not better than a cure though. You have a zero hit point floor, if you are at 1 hit point an attack can't do more than 1 point of damage damage. Further there is no difference in terms of play with being at 1 hit point or at full hit points (6 in this case but it could be 106).

Mathmatically the most efficient use of healing is to cure for minimum possible hit point after you go to 0.

This is why your cleric yo-yoing the Fighter with healing word 8 hit points every turn is MUCH MORE effective at 12th level than casting the Heal spell and bringing him to 70 in one shot.

has a major advantages over Strength of the Grave. It negates the entire hit rather than leaving you in a situation where you can take no more than a papercut.

It has multiple major disadvantages too - it doesn't negate all hits, it uses a spell prepared and it uses a spell slot.

It is also not as powerful at 1st level from a mathematical perspective. Numbers matter. SOG at 1st level has about a 75% chance on average of taking an attack that would kill you and making it not kill you.

Shield has a 25% chance of protecting you from an attack, although that is not the whole story.

The average enemy at 1st level has a +4 attack bonus. If you assume a hit on an AC13 Wizard, casting shield has a 5 in 12 (42%) chance of protecting you from a hit that would otherwise down you. It can protect you from future hits as well (if you have already cast it 25% per attack), but again we are talking about 1st level where you are not getting attacked a lot.

So if you are comparing this mathematically SOG is just plain more powerful at 1st level.

Moreover SOG works on any damage you take, not just on attacks.



As for "relying on cantrips for most of their spell power", you only need one combat cantrip. The sorcerer is relying on cantrips for their out of combat spell power - but the wizard gets rituals as well. And here the wizard has an overwhelming advantage.

Even if you only need one combat cantrip (which I disagree with, I like 3 ideally - Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch and Firebolt), but more to the point there are a ton of good non-combat cantrips too and yon want them on your list.

Tell me you don't understand statistics without telling me you don't understand statistics. There are two legitimate ways of saying Shield's chance of success and you are wrong in both of them.
  • The first is that Shield adds five to your already 12-ish AC. If someone needed a six to hit (so 75%) then Shield would mean that they now needed an 11 (so 50%). It would therefore prevent 33% of hits. This is the appropriate way of working out the effectiveness of something like Mage Armour


Ok there are a few with this - at 1st level the average enemy has a +4 attack bonus, so they would need an 8 to hit AC 12, not a 6. I tend to use AC 13 for an unarmored caster, which means it stops 42% of attacks that would otherwise hit (as noted above)


  • The second is that you only cast Shield when you've seen the attack roll. If Shield wouldn't work then ... don't cast Shield. Shield therefore has a 100% reliability of negating a full hit on the times you use it.

There is no rule that you have to see the attack roll, I realize different tables play differently, but the point is when it is not effective at stoping the attack (which will be a majority of the time without armor or mage armor) you will go down if the attack would down you.

An attack that would down you will not down you a majority of the time with SOG. If you have actually seen SOG in play at 1st level I can't believe that you don't understand how powerful it is.

You are just wrong. The most effective use of a first level spell at high levels is Silvery Barbs to force an enemy to reroll a successful saving throw.

This is not as poweful as people think for three reasons - first many enemies have legendary resistance. Second most of the time an enemy passes a save at high level it is because they have a high saving throw number, meaning a high chance of succeeding again, third it uses your reaction thereby killing counterspell, Shield or Absorb Elements.

I have played a ton of high level D&D in the last 2 years and SB is just not OP. Period.

Silvery Barbs is a decent spell powerwise and it is a "not fun" PITA in terms of gameplay at the table, but it is not extremely powerful. Shield, Absorb Elements, Dissonant Whispers, Healing Word, Bless, Find Familiar and Sanctuary are all substantially more powerful than SB at high level.

From this I've learned that you play even supposedly Int 20 monsters as complete idiots. Orcus has Chill Touch cast at seventeenth level as a cantrip and one he can use a legendary action to cast. And Chill Touch, of course, prevents healing. The only reason your party was able to beat Orcus through spamming Healing Word is because he was busy committing suicide-by-adventuring-party.

Well I wasn't the DM, but it would have been counterspelled if he did use it.

Prevention is better than cure. And DW is a fight ender.

Not really. It is a creature ender at 1st level, but you are usually fighting more than one enemy. If you are all ganging up on a single Ettercap when you have 3 martials engaged with him, sure it can be a fight ender on a failed save, but generally you are fighting multiple bandits or multiple goblins or multiple skeletons and this kills one of them with the damage and AOOs it generates.

Don't get me wrong it is one of my favorite first level spells and one I commonly get off list with either Magic Initiate or Fey Touched. It is absolutly bonkers with twin spell on a Sorcerer or high level Enchantment Wizard ... but that is higher level. It is also broken on a frightened enemy, and that happens a lot at level, but is again not common at 1st.

If you're in a many on one beatdown it absolutely does match Sleep.

At first level sleep is still going to be more effective. If you are in this 1 v many you are not going to have enough to one shot the BBEG even with DW and the AOOs it generates and you are not going to have enough to one shot him with sleep either.

But if you are to the point in terms of hit points that DW would end the encounter with one casting, then sleep is going to end the encounter too and it will do it more reliably because there is no save.

And this is part of why the Aberrant Mind is so good. For the cost of a first level slot and one sorcery point you can Hideous Laughter 2 enemies. And on the second foe the Hideous Laughter is every bit as good as Hold Person because you can only focus fire one target at once so you just leave them to laugh.

I like Cause Fear a lot better than THL as far as 1st level control. THL is situationally better but as a concentration spell Cause Fear is generally more effective because damage does not cause another save. If you cast it on enemies at range (or follow it with a Dissonant Whispers) it takes away the ability of enemies to close for melee, rendering many nearly as useless as THL. It is also very effective on enemies with a melee multiattack because your martials can attack and then back away, taking a single AOO but avoiding multiattack.

You can use a SP to twin Cause Fear, but you can also upcast it.

Most of the time I get THL it is on a Rogue because they can't get Cause Fear.

Ooh. One spell. You're playing with about ten across the offensive magic, defensive magic, exploration, and social groups. As opposed to ten split across five levels.

Ok what 10 spells do you pick with your 11th level Warlock

Keep in mind the Sorcerer is rocking Animate Objects, Globe of Invulnerability, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility, Psychic Lance and he does not have to use a 5th level slot to cast most of those!


A better example of what to do with an Invocation is Disguise Self At Will. That's way better than being able to just cast it once because you can do Bugs Bunny level quick change shenanigans

That is decent, but with a 1-hour time I don't find it compelling when compared to the spell. I usually get this as a spell on Rogues, Bards and Wizards with a high Charisma. Less often on Sorcerers.

I don't like it compared to things like Investment of the Chain Master, Gift of the Everliving Ones, Eldrtich Sight or Eldritch Mind. If I want Disguise Self on a Warlock I am probably getting it through either Magic Initiate or Shadow Touched.

And what did it cost them? Everything else. Your sorcerer at this point is pure glass cannon with the lowest hit points in the game, no armour, the lowest hit points in the game, and a tiny spell list.

Yeah and a Warlock is generally a glass cannon at this level too.

The thing about how the warlock plays is that Invocations take the place of the lower level spell slots.

I get that but it is not generally as powerful as a full caster.

I have played a number of Warlocks. The only thing I have seen that is mildly OP on a Warlock is Investment of the Chain Master with a Sprite firing poison arrows from range. If you have funds and the DM allows things like Purple Worm poison or Wyvern Posion this stays powerful even at level 11. If you don't it then it starts to peter off about level 7.

And again this cost them everything else. Meanwhile the warlock can probably cast six to nine fifth level spells and have decent hit points, some armour, a pact boon, and a collection of invocations that should be significantly stronger than cantrips.

Light Armor is not much different from no armor at 11th level. If you are a Hexblade this is a difference, not much of one if you are not. The Warlock has 11 more hit points (or the same number if it is a Dragon Sorcerer), again not even the equivalent of one 2nd level slot.

They have 5 invocations, so a relatively small collection.

So you've never played with a game that either (a) had breakfast after getting up or (b) set watches overnight? You might never have played with a group that bothered to claim them as rests but they've been there. It;s simply that only the warlock would bother to claim them.

I play Warlocks. I am playing one right now.

If you're smart you aren't casting or even learning Shadow of Moil because it's a bad spell thanks to horrible action economy. You can't use it from stealth because it makes a mess, and if you're casting it in turn one you're being foolish. Someone rating Shadow of Moil is one of my tests for whether someone's a pure theorycrafter.

I don't get it myself but I have seen others (mostly Hexblades) use it.

More to the point - what are these great spells you are using all your extra 5th level slots on? We have established it is not Hex, it is not SOM. What is it?
 
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This is an issue in general, and connected to WOTC's adventure offerings. Many of their adventures are large in scope, spanning multiple levels and with few if any opportunities for downtime. In addition, adventures tend not to include all that many found spellbooks, or even scrolls, and the rules are rather silent on the cost of acquiring spells to copy into your spellbook (they specify the cost of the copying itself, but not of acquiring something to copy). That means that one of the wizard's main abilities, that of expanding their spell selection, is extremely campaign-reliant.
That's why people keep pointing to what wizards get without adding more by scribing spells. It's from leveling up. Any spells added is still better than other classes adding no spells by finding them and spending a cheap resource like gold.
The devil is in the details.,,,
You keep neglecting to add those details, however. Your posts look like double-speak with no actual information. ;-)
At 3rd and 4th level though the Sorc has metamagic and is ahead again because of what this brings to the table, even when compared to the best Wizard subclasses.
The issue is sorcery points are a limited resource and the sorcerer only has a couple of metamagic options to select at that point. Metamagic is great and the reason to play a sorcerer, but it's still a limited resource competing with the wizards greater spell selection and rituals and arcane recovery.
Remember,
Careful Spell applies to everyspell, Sculpt Spell works only with Evocation Spell. Hello? Hypnotic Pattern, fear, etc.
Careful spell comes from a limited selection of metamagic options and costs a limited resource as well. The sorcerer also has less spell selection prepped to take advantage of the larger list of spells to which careful spell can be applied.
Sure, but if high level wizard spells are better than tossing an quicken firebolt every turn, then Bard is going to be the best at high levels. Especially if there is only 1 or 2 premium wizard spells.
I'd have to ask how the bard would be able to do this. The bard has a huge list of options that isn't actualized because of the limited number of spells available for them to prep. If it truly were only certain spells this might work in the bards' favor but bards cannot apply metamagic like sorcerers can and don't have wizard subclass enhancements to their spells and cannot recover spell slots like other arcane casters.

Bards have a great selection from which to choose through magical secrets but they're more restricted than other spell casters in almost every way.
Also… You do more damage if you are blasting first.
Distant Spell double its range. So, fireball is now 300ft, SS is also 300ft. You are now blasting faster and safer.

Yes, extended Spell double duration and advantage on con saves that the sorcerer is already has con proficiency.
We're risking getting into a schrodinger sorcerer argument by applying too many metamagic abilities. Metamagic is great but the number of options and sorcery points are still restrictions.
Sorcerer warlock and Bard (the other arcane casters) get class features and subclass features+many bonus spells to offset their limited spell selection...
That's an assumption that those bonus spells are actually offsetting the limited selection. Not being able to select those spells still limits those classes significantly and the base selection is still far more limited for most of them and the spell book without spending extra money is still a superior sideboard of additional spells (and rituals) as has been demonstrated repeatedly in this thread by multiple people.

Calling out bards like that is misleading. While most sorcerer and all warlock subclasses are adding fixed spells to spell preparation bards are not doing so. Adding 2 at 20th level and 2 spells in a couple of bard colleges is not "many bonus spells" and it's not like dance or valor add any.

While I agree that adding spells for the sorcerer or warlock can be helpful, those spell are not selected for preparation. It's just whatever WotC decided to toss in. Those spells are also limited to 5th level spells and lower so wizards have much better access to spell levels 6-9; ie the powerful spells.
 

That's why people keep pointing to what wizards get without adding more by scribing spells. It's from leveling up. Any spells added is still better than other classes adding no spells by finding them and spending a cheap resource like gold.
I believe that the post you quoted also has me talking about how those same system level design choices undercutting what should be weak areas for the sorcerer work to undercut those things the wizard gets that
should be strengths of the wizard. That is not the first of my posts to do so.
 

Prevention is not better than a cure though.
Yes it is. If you Sleep those foes rather than Shield or Strength of the Grave you don't get hit at all. Strength of the Grave you claim is stronger than Shield - I was using benchmarking for Shield. The question is whether at first level Strength of the Grave is stronger than Sleep. (We can both agree that at first level Sleep is way stronger than Shield). I'm saying no and that Strength of the Grave is only roughly equivalent to Shield.
Mathmatically the most efficient use of healing is to cure for minimum possible hit point after you go to 0.
This applies if and only if the enemies are holding back. Which we've already established they do in your campaigns with your Orcus example. Any even vaguely smart group of bad guys, fighting for their life, should have heard of Healing Word as it's a common first level spell. And after the first time someone gets back to their feet with Healing Word a half way intelligent group of foes is going to start confirming its kills.

And at the point when the monsters take the kid gloves off and start behaving as if they are actually in fights for their lives you want those 70 hit points. Otherwise you're going to be burning through a whole lot of diamonds for Revivify.
Well I wasn't the DM, but it would have been counterspelled if he did use it.
You had four casters capable of casting Counterspell? (Once on turn, three times on Legendary Actions). And all of them would automatically have counterspelled a cantrip?
I like Cause Fear a lot better than THL as far as 1st level control.
One target or two? Cause Fear is better against the main target of the focus fire while THL absolutely shuts down a secondary target. And a key problem with 5e tactics is that attacks at range and attacks in melee are almost equally effective for most intelligent foes due to using the same basic stats.
Ok what 10 spells do you pick with your 11th level Warlock

Keep in mind the Sorcerer is rocking Animate Objects, Globe of Invulnerability, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, Greater Invisibility, Psychic Lance and he does not have to use a 5th level slot to cast most of those!
OK Let's check this. A L11 sorcerer has 12 spells known. Animate Objects (L5), Globe of Invulnerability (L6), Counterspell (L3), Dispel Magic (L3), Fear (L3), Hypnotic Pattern (L3), Greater Invisibility (L4), Psychic Lance (L4). That's four level 3 spells for three slots, two level four spells for three slots, and one level 5 spell for two slots. And only two half-exploration spells (Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility). You've very little defence in there except the globe and greater invisibility (Mage Armour, Shield, and Absorb Elements would soak three of the remaining four).

Off the top of my head (and accounting for spell retraining) a L11 warlock has only 11 spells known rather than 12 - but that doesn't count the level 6 Mystic Arcanum. So I've got two L1-5 spells left over here.
  1. Scrying (L5). This is a textbook out of combat spell that a warlock can cast better than anyone else because it only takes an hour to get the spell slot back. A level 11 warlock can scry twice and hex before breakfast and still have all their slots.
  2. Teleportation Circle (L5). Again a fifth level exploration spell is cheaper for a warlock than anyone else. Someone in the party should have this - and in general you can rest at least one of before or after using the teleportation circle. (Note that this is optional based on worldbuilding)
  3. Hex (L1). As mentioned the warlock cheats the spell slot economy when they cast it.
  4. Synaptic Static (L5). Every caster needs an AoE sweeper spell. This one is also a nasty AoE debilitation spell and works against Int, which is one of the two best saves to target
  5. A summon spell (L3-5). They are great. Depending on how things have gone this might be Infernal Calling (if the warlock has an individual devil of the right level's talisman) or it might be a Tasha's summons.
  6. Banishment (L4). Especially if paired with Infernal Calling. But a save-or-leave-the-fight is amazing and Charisma is the other good stat to attack. If not Infernal Calling then Psychic Lance is a contender.
  7. Greater Invisibility (L4). Probably a better pick than upcast Invisibility that hides the entire party
  8. Armour of Agathys (L1). A defensive spell that when it's hot is hot. It cheats the action economy (there are few hour long precast buffs that don't take Concentration), prevents a significant amount of damage - and against foes with low damage melee attacks this spell can be utterly brutal to the point of deliberately provoking opportunity attacks.
  9. Dispel Magic (L3). Unlike Counterspell this is a quasi-exploration spell - and the warlock can often cast spells like Dispel Magic and then rest up when exploring a strange environment.
It's a much more well rounded list than your basically pure combat list where the only thing I see that the sorcerer can do that doesn't make them a second rate wizard that can beef up their cantrips is twinned psychic lance.
 

The question is whether at first level Strength of the Grave is stronger than Sleep. (We can both agree that at first level Sleep is way stronger than Shield). I'm saying no and that Strength of the Grave is only roughly equivalent to Shield.
Strength of the Grave is going to be level 3.

Also, False Life is probably the best level 1 defensive spell. Scales like crap, but it should absorb any 1st level attack, AC or otherwise, as long as it's not a crit.
 

Yes it is. If you Sleep those foes rather than Shield or Strength of the Grave you don't get hit at all.

Sleep is very effective at 1st level when it works, but it does not work all the time and it does nothing against damage you take.

Strength of the Grave you claim is stronger than Shield - I was using benchmarking for Shield. The question is whether at first level Strength of the Grave is stronger than Sleep.

Why is this a question? They are used for different things.

This applies if and only if the enemies are holding back. Which we've already established they do in your campaigns with your Orcus example. Any even vaguely smart group of bad guys, fighting for their life, should have heard of Healing Word as it's a common first level spell. And after the first time someone gets back to their feet with Healing Word a half way intelligent group of foes is going to start confirming its kills.

IF they can. When I play as a DM I go out of my way to do this and even take AOOs to make it happen. But you need 3 hits before healing word comes out (or two with a failed death save). It is rare that I can make that happen as a DM and I try frequently.

And at the point when the monsters take the kid gloves off and start behaving as if they are actually in fights for their lives you want those 70 hit points. Otherwise you're going to be burning through a whole lot of diamonds for Revivify.

No you won't one healing word resets all your death saves to 0. I is rare that the enemy can kill a character outright before that happens.

Ironically most of the time I can as a DM it is when I am playing an enemy with legendary actions, because he is in position to keep attacking the downed guy.

You had four casters capable of casting Counterspell? (Once on turn, three times on Legendary Actions). And all of them would automatically have counterspelled a cantrip?

No. Counterspell always automatically counterspells a cantrip, even when cast at 1st level.

I wasn't the DM. We also had a fighter attacking him too, but it was the Barbarian that kept getting up from healing word.

One target or two? Cause Fear is better against the main target of the focus fire while THL absolutely shuts down a secondary target. And a key problem with 5e tactics is that attacks at range and attacks in melee are almost equally effective for most intelligent foes due to using the same basic stats.

THL is situationally better as I said. But only situationally. Most adversaries have better melee attacks. I completely disagree that attacks at range are just as good. A lot of intelligent enemies (I think most actually) don't have ranged attacks at all (Dragons, Elementals, Knight, Mummy) and a lot that do have ranged attacks lose multiattack when they use it (example Orogs, Giants, Assassin, Knight).

Cause Fear lets the rest of your party act with more freedom than THL does and that makes it better most of the time IME. Dissonant Whispers in particular pairs really well with Cause Fear.




OK Let's check this. A L11 sorcerer has 12 spells known. Animate Objects (L5), Globe of Invulnerability (L6), Counterspell (L3), Dispel Magic (L3), Fear (L3), Hypnotic Pattern (L3), Greater Invisibility (L4), Psychic Lance (L4). That's four level 3 spells for three slots, two level four spells for three slots, and one level 5 spell for two slots. And only two half-exploration spells (Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility).

A Sorcerer is not typically using spells for exploration.

Also Greater Invisibility only lasts 1 minute, so it is not a very good exploration spell. Regular invisibility is far better and as a sorcerer I can cast that for a 2nd level slot.

You've very little defence in there except the globe and greater invisibility (Mage Armour, Shield, and Absorb Elements would soak three of the remaining four).

Off the top of my head (and accounting for spell retraining) a L11 warlock has only 11 spells known rather than 12 - but that doesn't count the level 6 Mystic Arcanum. So I've got two L1-5 spells left over here.
  1. Scrying (L5). This is a textbook out of combat spell that a warlock can cast better than anyone else because it only takes an hour to get the spell slot back. A level 11 warlock can scry twice and hex before breakfast and still have all their slots.
  2. Teleportation Circle (L5). Again a fifth level exploration spell is cheaper for a warlock than anyone else. Someone in the party should have this - and in general you can rest at least one of before or after using the teleportation circle. (Note that this is optional based on worldbuilding)
  3. Hex (L1). As mentioned the warlock cheats the spell slot economy when they cast it.
  4. Synaptic Static (L5). Every caster needs an AoE sweeper spell. This one is also a nasty AoE debilitation spell and works against Int, which is one of the two best saves to target
  5. A summon spell (L3-5). They are great. Depending on how things have gone this might be Infernal Calling (if the warlock has an individual devil of the right level's talisman) or it might be a Tasha's summons.
  6. Banishment (L4). Especially if paired with Infernal Calling. But a save-or-leave-the-fight is amazing and Charisma is the other good stat to attack. If not Infernal Calling then Psychic Lance is a contender.
  7. Greater Invisibility (L4). Probably a better pick than upcast Invisibility that hides the entire party
  8. Armour of Agathys (L1). A defensive spell that when it's hot is hot. It cheats the action economy (there are few hour long precast buffs that don't take Concentration), prevents a significant amount of damage - and against foes with low damage melee attacks this spell can be utterly brutal to the point of deliberately provoking opportunity attacks.
  9. Dispel Magic (L3). Unlike Counterspell this is a quasi-exploration spell - and the warlock can often cast spells like Dispel Magic and then rest up when exploring a strange environment.
So you have all these 5th level slots you are so happy recharge on a short rest, but you have no 5th level combat spells you are casting? I thought the Warlock was supposed to blow everyone away at 11th level. You are blowing people away with Teleportation Circle and Scrying?

Also for teleportation circle to work on a short rest you need to know the location of another teleportation circle that you want to go to. I literally have never seen this come into play when cast by a party member in 10 years of 5E. Every time I have seen it used it is as a plot device.

And yes, while AOA, Dispel Magic and Psychic Lance upcast great, they are not the equivalent of an actual 5th level spell.

  1. It's a much more well rounded list than your basically pure combat list where the only thing I see that the sorcerer can do that doesn't make them a second rate wizard that can beef up their cantrips is twinned psychic lance.

I think you have lost track of what my claim was. I was talking specifically about combat - here is my wording which you responded to citing at 11th level a Warlock was better. Note the underlined and bolded:

"Wizard is the most flexible class by far and the most powerful overall, but I think the Sorcerer is the most powerful spellcaster in terms of combat power at most levels because with the better subclasses they have more spells prepared than a Wizard and they can enhance the spells with metamagic."

I was (and am) talking specifically about combat when I claimed the Sorcerer was more powerful and your initial response quoted this.

There are a lot of builds that are more well rounded than a Sorcerer at almost any level, but that is not what we are talking about. With Invocations a Warlock can be more well rounded than a Sorcerer at almost any level.
 
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Why is this a question? They are used for different things.
Shield and Sleep use the same resource.
IF they can. When I play as a DM I go out of my way to do this and even take AOOs to make it happen. But you need 3 hits before healing word comes out (or two with a failed death save). It is rare that I can make that happen as a DM and I try frequently.
If all that's been used to stand someone back up is Healing Word then you need precisely one hit after that to knock them down (and it can be AoE damage). And then once they are down attacks on them take a death save - and melee attacks two thanks to the autocrit on unconscious targets.
No you won't one healing word resets all your death saves to 0. I is rare that the enemy can kill a character outright before that happens.
A lot of NPCs have multi-attack. One hit (including an AoE) to knock them down, the second melee strike to auto-crit (if it hits with advantage) because of unconscious and thus take out two death saves. Can the remaining NPCs dredge up a third attack from somewhere before the healers act? It doesn't have to be a strong one.

So if someone in melee only has Healing Word HP they have a good chance of ending the monster's next turn within a single hit of dead.
No. Counterspell always automatically counterspells a cantrip, even when cast at 1st level.
You're missing the point. Counterspell automatically counterspells a cantrip - but Orcus has legendary actions - and one of his choices with the legendary actions is to cast another cantrip. How many counterspellers were in the party? Like I said you need four; one for Orcus' turn and three for his legendary actions.
A Sorcerer is not typically using spells for exploration.
Indeed. Sorcerers are kinda limited because of their number of spells known.
So you have all these 5th level slots you are so happy recharge on a short rest, but you have no 5th level combat spells you are casting?
Didn't you read the list? Because there were multiple combat spells there. Starting with Synaptic Static and double-banishment. (I do hope that there's at least one rewritten summons on the warlock list in 5e that gains a non-trivial benefit from being cast at level 5 in the way upgrading Tasha's summons from level 3 to level 4 is worth the upcast).
Also for teleportation circle to work on a short rest you need to know the location of another teleportation circle that you want to go to. I literally have never seen this come into play when cast by a party member in 10 years of 5E. Every time I have seen it used it is as a plot device.
Then we play different settings and the PCs have different resources. By level 10 I would expect the PCs to have a base and a teleportation circle in that base. The incoming Bastion rules encourage something I see as a matter of course at that level. In part because I want to see what the PCs build - and if they have a home that leads to entanglements.
And yes, while AOA, Dispel Magic and Psychic Lance upcast great, they are not the equivalent of an actual 5th level spell.
AOA works like a Divine Smite; it cheats the action economy. You can say that a 3d8 smite isn't the equivalent of a second level spell slot (it isn't) - but the reason it works is that the paladin also gets to make an attack on the same turn and you stack the two. Depending what you are facing it absolutely can be worth it in a fifth level slot. And as mentioned Dispel Magic here is primarily an exploration spell where you can frequently get it back before combat depending on what you are facing.
I think you have lost track of what my claim was. I was talking specifically about combat - here is my wording which you responded to citing at 11th level a Warlock was better. Note the underlined and bolded:

"Wizard is the most flexible class by far and the most powerful overall, but I think the Sorcerer is the most powerful spellcaster in terms of combat power at most levels because with the better subclasses they have more spells prepared than a Wizard and they can enhance the spells with metamagic."
I'll grant the point. I'd forgotten it was pure combat prowess you claimed, and I would argue level 11 for the warlock still unless they are routinely stunted in short rests (which happens a lot); I don't believe that burning everything into fifth level slots is actually viable and I hadn't realised that you were planning on utterly dumping non combat casting. But this is a needed catchup (the warlock struggling badly at level 10).
 


Oh, a staff comparison contest: Who has the longer staff, the wizard or the sorcerer?
Monk.
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