2E vs 3E: 8 Years Later. A new perspective?

[Spell]

Given that the typical attack roll in the GURPS advanced combat system has one modifier (hit location) or on occassion two (if you use one of the various combat maneuvers, like an all-out attack), the word "tons" makes no sense in this context either.

ah, the more i read your posts, the more i appreciate where you come from...

let's play a game. let's pretend that i point you to this _OFFICIAL_ sjgames page .

let's also pretend that you actually follow the link, instead of deciding what makes sense and what doesn't, and scroll down, finiding the documents called "Combat Flowchart" and the "Combat Table". let's pretend that you are curious enough to download and open them. don't worry, there are no viruses.

let's pretend that you actually look at the flowchart and realise, maybe for the first time in your life, that there are 56 (that's FIFTYSIX, in case you misread it) steps in it.

let's also pretend that you look at the 2 pages literally _filled_ with modifiers that the combat table gives you.

now, let's stop pretending. enough effort for one day.

having pointed these offcial sjgames resources to you, i will now ignore you, because:
1. your tone is dismissive, lecturing and offensive.

2. your reply do not contribute in any constructive way to the original discussion nor to any other "subtread" that the original discussion caused.

3. i made my point to prove that GURPS advanced combat is nowhere near the smooth, simple system that you claimed it to be.

i am sure you will agree otherwise, but other people's post (henry's, specifically) have already pointed out that your perception of GURPS combat, however respectful (because, you see, i respect your opinion, no matter how offensive you try to be), is not shared by everyone in the world. other ENworlders might agree with me. in fact, there are posters on the sjgames forums that do so. this thread , for example, came up as no. 2 suggested webpage in a google search for "gurps combat cheat sheet".


for the other readers:
1. i never claimed that GURPS is inherently inferior to D&D. or superior, for that matter. some parts of it (in my opinion) are, but it does have its drawbacks.

2. this is GURPS advanced combat. the basic one is very smooth and quick. no need for a flowchart in it.

3. my reference to "tons of modifiers" was not specifi to GURPS advanced combat, but to ANY combat system in which you have to stop in the middle of things to refer to charts, books, rules, and to do maths, instead of enjoying the combat and get your narrative/ descriptive juices flowing freely.

4. there's nothing wrong with maths. only, there's a time and place for it, and it's not during my combat sessions.

let's now keep posting.

 

[Spell]

Those interested in "other than current" editions of D&D seem to be a sizeable subset to me.

Oh, sure, they often don't hang around on ENWorld or RPGNet.

first of all, let me tell you that i would in general agree with you: supporting older systems would be way cool.

on the other hand, a change of prospective might shed more light on why this is unlikely to happen.

let's say that your guesstimation of how sizeable the "older D&D editions" maket might be is correct. it probably is. i'm sure there's a lot more gamers out there that have stopped playing with 1e, 2e, and BECM put together that 4e buyers.

the thing is: how knows if these people are still gaming today? some of my friends have stopped altogether. at first because BD&D was not supported anymore in italy AND u.s. but now, after... a good 10 years, their life has moved on. they have different hobbies. they are married. they don't have children yet, but they might soon.
even if Wizards printed the best ever BD&D sourcebook, and shipped it at their door completely free of charge, chances are that they wouldn't start a campaign any time soon.

even those players that are out there playing older editions right now might be quite hard to win back. after years of developing their own material, why would they need to buy "book X"? their game might have moved away from the original assumptions of the older editions. these players might have all the rules they ever need.

even if you chained Gary Gygax himself to a chair and forced him to come up with a new sourcebook, would they have any use for it? and if Gygax is not a sure sale, why should Rich Baker (or whoever else) be?

moreover, the old edition gamers are, at best, a divided market. some guy stopped playing when unearthed arcana came out, because it's rubbish. another thinks that you can't top D&D rules cyclopedia. i love 2e core and splatbooks, but i didn't like too much 2 of the player's option books.

it's a bit like greyhawk's canon: every player have their own take, and it's literally impossible to get them all to agree! (as this thread, in its limited scope, has demonstrated so far).


one final point would be advertisement. i remember that some of the 3e designers said that wizards had to put ads for 3e in places other than dragon or dungeon for the simple reason that gamers that stopped playing because of their dislike of 2e, would have not be aware of 3e if the ads hadn't been put in "unusual" places. (i don't ahve a source for this, sorry. i hope someone else will point it out for me... merric?)

what if wizards wanted to put a OD&D book out today, aimed at older gamers? where would they advertise the idea? how? we're talking about reaching people htat might not have an internet connection... and if they do, they might not be using it to read EnWorld and other RPG related forums.



so, even if the market was there (and it might be), Wizards would be facing:

1. a division of their buyers (it's better to concentrate your forces on producing 1 or more 4e book a month, than dissipate them on those same 4e books, AND a number of releases for other systems).

2. angry vocal customers ("how comes you're not putting out more 2e books? you just want our money, you evil @@@@@!!!" or, even more likely: "how comes you are wasting your time and energies putting together books for those inferior systems?!?! i'm sure my Book of evil bananas would have no typos had you not wasted any time with those releases!!! you just want our money, you evil @@@@@!!!").

3. a shaky advertisement situation.

4. a source of profit that is not that immediate or secure, even less so than the current 3e gamers that are so vociferous about their hate of 4e (you never know, they might change their mind later!).

5. the ghost of TSR financial crack, almost universally attibuted to their manager incomprehensible decision to support so many settings all at once (among other things... factors like the raise of computer/ console games, or CCGs are generally ignored... god knows why).



for all of those reasons, it would take BIG BALLS to make a u turn and support older systems. with all due respect, even as i would think that they'd be quite foolish to do so. and i *love* older editions and would buy new books/ adventures for them, if they were as good and evocative as those i love.

it's sad, in a way, but it's only logical. RPGs are not meant to support large institutions like computer software does. they are not required to fly safely a plane that might be out of production, but still in good conditions.

RPGs are, let's face it, just a cheap, little known, niche hobby, mostly for nerds.
hardly the kind of market that will keep buying without causing too many problems.

 

[Spell]

sorry, double post.

 

[Storm Raven]

ah, the more i read your posts, the more i appreciate where you come from...

let's play a game. let's pretend that i point you to this _OFFICIAL_ sjgames page .

let's also pretend that you actually follow the link, instead of deciding what makes sense and what doesn't, and scroll down, finiding the documents called "Combat Flowchart" and the "Combat Table". let's pretend that you are curious enough to download and open them. don't worry, there are no viruses.

I don't have to. See, I own that flowchart as it is found in Rules Compendium II.

let's pretend that you actually look at the flowchart and realise, maybe for the first time in your life, that there are 56 (that's FIFTYSIX, in case you misread it) steps in it.

About 80% of those steps don't come up in most rounds. So, basically, you are making things seem a lot harder than they actually are. Five of the entries on the flowchart are end points.

let's also pretend that you look at the 2 pages literally _filled_ with modifiers that the combat table gives you.

All but a handful of which almost never come up, espcially in a fantasy game. For example, you don't have to bother with recoil penalties, armor divisors, or blunt force trauma from bullet hits on someone wearing flexible body armor. Most of the time you aren't going to have to deal with things like wild swings, most terrain penalties and so on. The flowchart covers both ranged and melee combat, as well as close combat, and each character can only be doing one at a time, so the bulk of the chart won't apply to the situation you are actually in during combat. In other words, you will only have to deal with one or two things in combat, 90% of the time, you will roll your attack skill (with possible modifiers for hit location, and maybe one special modifier) and, if you hit, your opponent will roll an active defense. That's it.

Yes, you can look at a chart and say "wow, lots of steps", but in actual play, most don't come up, or simply don't apply. The question is how it works in actual play, not how long it is to detail out every possible issue (and the chart details out every possible issue, make a similar chart for D&D, and it would likely be as long, or longer, since things like grappling and high-tech or ulta-tech weapons would have to be accounted for to be as complete).

now, let's stop pretending. enough effort for one day.

having pointed these offcial sjgames resources to you, i will now ignore you, because:
1. your tone is dismissive, lecturing and offensive.

Well, your arguments are weak and flimsy. Since your arguments don't match up to the facts, I can understand why you would find statements that show this to be dismissive.

2. your reply do not contribute in any constructive way to the original discussion nor to any other "subtread" that the original discussion caused.

You mean other than demonstrating that almost everything you claim about GURPS is untrue?

3. i made my point to prove that GURPS advanced combat is nowhere near the smooth, simple system that you claimed it to be.

No, you haven't. You only showed you don't know how the system works in actual play.

 

[Voadam]

and i *love* older editions and would buy new books/ adventures for them, if they were as good and evocative as those i love.

Check out the Goodman Games (Castles and Crusades), Troll Lord Games (Castles and Crusades), XRP (Osric) and Kenzer Co. (Hackmaster) for recent modules mostly compatible with older editions of D&D. I think there are a few other Osric ones but I can't remember the companies involved.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Check out the Goodman Games (Castles and Crusades), Troll Lord Games (Castles and Crusades), XRP (Osric) and Kenzer Co. (Hackmaster) for recent modules mostly compatible with older editions of D&D. I think there are a few other Osric ones but I can't remember the companies involved.

I want to say there are 35 OSRIC products to choose from right now (could be more; the publishers don't have to tell me when they release one, and often don't)--of which, I agree, a substantial number come from Expeditious Retreat Press, and thank you to Joe Browning!--but there's also Goblinoid Games, Ronin Arts, 0one, and Magique Productions alongside my own label.

I don't feel able to link the list because the ENWorld mods have been quite patient enough with my OSRIC marketing on this forum already.

 

[Reynard]

I have been prepping for a Hackmaster one-0shot I will be running in about a month at a local mini-con, and as I examine the game in depth, I have discovered that, setting aside all the "in jokes" and intentionally over the top elements and tone, it is a damn fine example of what "AD&D 3rd Edition" might have been.

 

[Spell]

Check out the Goodman Games (Castles and Crusades), Troll Lord Games (Castles and Crusades), XRP (Osric) and Kenzer Co. (Hackmaster) for recent modules mostly compatible with older editions of D&D. I think there are a few other Osric ones but I can't remember the companies involved.

i have some hackmaster stuff and castles and crusades. they're not bad, but... they're missing something.

i'll post a double thread either today or tomorrow about a little idea i have... i would like to get your input, too, Voadam!

 

[Spell]

I have been prepping for a Hackmaster one-0shot I will be running in about a month at a local mini-con, and as I examine the game in depth, I have discovered that, setting aside all the "in jokes" and intentionally over the top elements and tone, it is a damn fine example of what "AD&D 3rd Edition" might have been.

it is indeed. i am looking forward for the next edition (which, apparently, is slowly starting to be prepared). it has some really really neat concepts and old material is very portable in it.
a bit rule heavy, but, hey, at least they manage to create a system that made much more sense than any edition of AD&D. too bad that the in jokes... i love them, but not for everyone.

 

[Arauthator]

You guys arguing is EXACTLY the point I made earlier about rules heavy and rules light is a matter of opinion. It all depends on what type of players you have, and how much combat versus role playing you throw down at the game table to even make this an issue.

Excellent point being made about GURPS. He's right, most of the stuff in the combat system you can't cover all at once.....and in my opinion, that goes for ALL RPG Games.

I've said it once on here and I'll say it again, rules will only tear up a game if you stick by them and take away the control from the DM and fight over them rules. The DM is the one that makes the game fun or not, along with the right players. Not Steve Jackson Games, Not Gary Gygax, Not Wizards of The Coast, Not FASA....Yeah, I'm thinking of Shadowrun by mentioning that last Company, which nobody has mentioned anything about yet in this debate. Amazing.

Lets disect this term...RPG. I believe that stands for Role Playing Game. Do we agree on that?

Well, a lot of guys turn that in to Rule Playing Game and that is where bad things happen. These guys designing games don't even have a chance when this is happening. It's a serious issue that has spread like a disease and it needs to be addressed by somebody in the industry to turn it around. I STRONGLY feel not enough emphasis is being put on the role of the Games Masters and what the responsibility of the players should be.

Any of you ever heard of Johnn Four? His website is excellent in helping DM's take control of role playing...which his website is called Roleplayingtips.com...well he is an excellent contributor to getting the DM on the right track and this industry needs his ideas and people like him in a very bad way. Anybody designing games should shoot him an email and make him an offer, because he's got it going on.

Another great website I like to visit....besides this one, is Mortality.net. Those guys have audio files available for download and have guys in the Games Industry stop by all the time and explain their product in a radio talk show style, or give you a behind the scenes overview of the latest books they are putting out on the shelves. This has really helped me and my players understand a lot of things.....it gets more across to the people playing the games, versus reading a few short pages in the front of the manuals or reading what people have to say on forums. They also have a really great thing going on.