2E vs 3E: 8 Years Later. A new perspective?

[Voadam]

fine, but my point is not that 3e is a wargame. only that the combat rules take the foreground. in other words, my feeling (unfortunately is just a feeling, because i don't have my books with me) is that my issue is not what was left out. it's more with the presentation of the ruleset (which can make all the difference in the world) and in the parts that were added, in the core and in subsequent splatbooks.

I see. That's a point of difference between us then. I didn't consider primary presentation of playstyle in the 2e (storytelling focus) versus 3e PH (more focus on mechanics of combat and balance) as big deals.

Storytelling and roleplaying has been part of my D&D games through Red Book Basic Set, Blue Book Expert Set, AD&D 1e, 2e, 3e, and 3.5. the playstyle gloss of the 2e v 3e books did not seem particularly important to me, more so was the specifics of details.

2e had better monster descriptions, neater divine specializations through specialty priests, and greater compatibility with prior edition material IMO.

3e had better saves, multiclassing, ability score mechanics, BAB mechanic, fully fledged monster stats, etc. IMO.

These details are the significant differences. The playstyle issues were pretty irrelevant to my games.

 

[Voadam]

For another example, GURPS Bili the Axe: Up Harzburk now sells for $37. Do you really think people are paying $37 for a solo adventure that was recalled? I may not have paid that much, but I know I didn't buy it to play with.

Huh, I never knew that. I got it when I saw it cheap in the sale bin at my FLGS in the 90s. Why was it recalled?

 

[Fifth Element]

"Millions" of modifiers? Please.

I read the post you quoted. The word "millions" was not used. "Tons" was used. Of course, since that refers to a measure of weight, and is being applied to something that has no weight, it is clearly being used as a figure of speech. Don't take things so literally.

 

[prosfilaes]

But the fact that there's a secondary market, even in stuff like ST-1, tells me there's a demand.

But there's not a secondary market, even in stuff like ST-1; there's a secondary market, especially in stuff like ST-1. For another example, Van Gogh's Sunflowers may have sold for 30 million dollars, but reproductions go for the same price as the beer periodical table next to them...and I suspect that more of the latter are sold. What collectors are willing to spend the big bucks for the originals has little to nothing to do with what will sell when reprinted.

There are certainly multiple Player Handbooks on sale. If you check on ebay right now, you'll see all kinds of them; in fact, I picked up a new 1e PHB a few weeks back.

The only question is who's selling them.

And if WotC is selling them, then it implies that 1e is still a viable option. When you buy your books on eBay or Half Price Books, there's no such implication.

Huh, I never knew that. I got it when I saw it cheap in the sale bin at my FLGS in the 90s. Why was it recalled?

Too many path errors to be fixed in eratta.

 

[Storm Raven]

I read the post you quoted. The word "millions" was not used. "Tons" was used.

Given that the typical attack roll in the GURPS advanced combat system has one modifier (hit location) or on occassion two (if you use one of the various combat maneuvers, like an all-out attack), the word "tons" makes no sense in this context either.

 

[Reynard]

And if WotC is selling them, then it implies that 1e is still a viable option. When you buy your books on eBay or Half Price Books, there's no such implication.

Far more important than that is how fast they are moving and for what prices. the fact is there were a *lot* of AD&D books printed -- after all, it was the game during the "fad" phase of D&D. The fact that they continue to get bought and sold indicates that there is an interest. The fact that if you go to any convention there are at least a handful, if not many more, AD&D 1E games on the schedule is also indicative of its continued life and popularity.

With 4E in particular, I think there's a reasonable justification to "split the market" because it is already split. We just had a new poll and once again, even after months of WotC doing their best to convince us of how awesome it will be, approximately 25% answered that they were negative about 4E. This new edition, in both flavor and mechanics, is sufficiently different that the samne people that have played D&D for 30 years are not the same people that will be continuing to purchase D&D products -- but it is a pretty far leap to assume they aren't interested in purchasing.

Now, is that 25% number worth WotC's effort to publish "D&D Classic" and "New D&D" simultaneously? No one knows, not even WotC, because "New D&D" hasn't been tested in the market yet. But WotC is a business first and I can garauntee you that if a sizable market appears for pre-4E D&D, they'll change their tune, either by presenting a re-D&Dified 4E or by starting back up support for 3E again.

My personal preference would be for WotC to to declare earlier versions Public Domain (minus the IP monsters and such, of course) and clear up any questions of legality, etc.. inherent in the likes of OSRIC so that small companies will feel comfortable in publishing support materials for earlier editions. I mean, the people who play 1E or 2E aren't going to be buying 4E books anyway -- at least not past the initial "I have to see to know for sure" stage -- so it doesn't actually steal any money from WotC's pocket to allow those earlier editions to flourish in the tiny, niche market of "not the current edition of D&D" that every other rpg on the planet sits in.

 

[Hussar]

The fact that if you go to any convention there are at least a handful, if not many more, AD&D 1E games on the schedule is also indicative of its continued life and popularity.

Really? Granted, it's been about 15 years since I regularly went to any conventions (in the London/Toronto area), but, at that time, I had no idea that anyone still played 1e. I never saw a single scheduled game at a con.

Has that changed in recent years?

/edit - I've been listening to Fear the Boot podcasts of late and took a look at Fear The Con's game schedule and out of games there, there's nothing 1e. I know it's a small con, but, I had no idea that you regularly found 1e games run at cons.

 

[Lanefan]

Really? Granted, it's been about 15 years since I regularly went to any conventions (in the London/Toronto area), but, at that time, I had no idea that anyone still played 1e. I never saw a single scheduled game at a con.

Check the GenCon events list later in the spring; there'll be some 1e action there for sure.

Each year there's a tiny con. held here by the local college gaming club...I missed this year's completely but the previous year had at least one 1e game going. A ridiculously small sample, I know, but if a college con. that'll pull in 100 people on an execptionally good day can support a 1e game then I'd say there's still hope...

Lanefan

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

the tiny, niche market of "not the current edition of D&D" that every other rpg on the planet sits in.

All pen and paper RPGs are a tiny, niche market.

Those interested in "other than current" editions of D&D seem to be a sizeable subset to me.

Oh, sure, they often don't hang around on ENWorld or RPGNet.

 

[Spell]

I see. That's a point of difference between us then. I didn't consider primary presentation of playstyle in the 2e (storytelling focus) versus 3e PH (more focus on mechanics of combat and balance) as big deals.

i wouldn't if i had the chance to stick to my old group... but having to play with people that i absolutely don't know (like i had to, if i wanted to play at all, here or in the u.s.) changed my perspective.

ps: how do i get in one of your pbp games again?
and: would i need to study the PHB and/ or tons of other sources to make a character, or could i just come up with an idea and play? i know it's a bit unfair to ask, but the new semester is starting soon, and i will have limited amount of time to spend on the boards... i'd rather roleplay than skim through the SRD to create a character...