D&D 3.x [3.5] Archer changes

[Cloudgatherer]

That's a pretty good analysis of damage comparisons. I would submit that the higher the level, the archer will only be able to do more damage due to getting double benefits from +X stacking.

Also, remember the greatsword weilder must move up to the opponent, while the archer does not. If the opponent continues to move, the fighter is still at a disadvantage. So his average damage may be lower, but he'll hit more often by taking more shots.

 

[Kai Lord]

The stacking problem really starts to occur at levels 10+, since this is when magic items get into the +3 or more bonus. Stacking a +1 bow with a +1 arrow isn't a big deal, but if we have a +4 bow and +4 arrows when the fighter just has a +4 greatsword...

Greatsword: 2d6
Longbow: 1d8

He makes up the +4 right there, and at the very least rolls an average of +2 points higher than the archer for damage on dice alone. Then the 18 Str fighter gets to add another +6 to damage due to Strength. Throw in a 2nd level buff spell like Bull's Strength or a 1st level feat like Power Attack and I really don't see where the "stacking problem" of archery comes in, at least as far as damage is concerned.

 

[Numion]

Did that analysis take in to account that archer usually gets to do a full attack each round of combat, while meleers have to close in and possibly adjust position during combat?

 

[Kai Lord]

What if Bob's not within 30 feet, but has Bracers of Archery?

What if the swordsman had a belt of Storm Giant Strength or a potion of Super Heroism? Seriously, what's the point in scrutinizing every fighting style with every possible combination of obscure magic weapons?

Sometimes the swordsman will do more damage and sometimes the archer will. There is nothing wrong with this. You can conduct that little pepsi challenge with two different wielders of almost any weapon and find...one guy will do more damage.

Archers should be respected, but they aren't invincible.

The character I play wields a Mighty Composite Longbow and a Bastard Sword, and half the time he uses his bow and the other half he uses....his sword! Trust me, the bow is not all powerful. Its great blasting enemies at range with a big old bow, but when the going gets up close and personal, which is often, sometimes two hands and a Power Attack is your best friend.

Cleave and Great Cleave can do wonders to make up for Rapid Shot.

I just don't see the problem. If I felt safe having my character adventure with nothing more than his bow, I might be inclined to think that archery is the end all, be all, of combat, but he wouldn't even think of joining any serious fray without his sword at his side, assuming he had the choice.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What if the swordsman had a belt of Storm Giant Strength or a potion of Super Heroism? Seriously, what's the point in scrutinizing every fighting style with every possible combination of obscure magic weapons?

Bracers of Archery are not obscure for archer builds. They are staple. You'd be stupid not to drop 5k gold on one as soon as you had the cash available.

Similarly, a Belt of Giant Strength +4 or +6 is pretty much expected of a mid-high level melee Fighter.

-Hyp.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's somewhat interesting that all of the analyses thus far have dealt with fighter based archers and have ignored the disproportionate effects of energized or aligned weapons. (A +1 holy shock bow wielded by a 10th level character with rapid shot deals +9d6 damage in one round while a +1 Holy Shock greatsword only deals +6d6 damage in one round).

They have also ignored the common practice of fighters multiclassing with barbarian and getting the ability to rage.

IME, the typical 6th level grunt fighter looks more like Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 1 than Fighter 6. (And if you want a real life comparison, I'll be happy to demonstrate how a Cleric archer regularly dealt out as much damage as a 28 strength (32 when raging) half orc/half copper dragon barbarian between levels 4 and 8 (the levels we played through in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil)).

Even more significantly, for a thread that is supposedly analyzing the changes in archery from 3.0e to 3.5e, it's gone remarkably off-topic.

Here's my analysis of the most significant changes:

1. Haste. Changing Haste changes the balance of everything in the game system. In 3e, haste was an equalizer between archery and melee combat because the extra partial action enabled the melee character to partial charge and then execute a full attack. The archer, OTOH, couldn't charge. He could move and make a full attack but got less out of haste in that case (the melee character gets the charge attack AND the full attack; the archer only gets the full attack). Usually, however, the archer just took an extra attack.

In 3.5e, according to Dragon Magazine, Haste doesn't give any extra action at all--instead, it gives an extra attack on a full attack action. Consequently, any meleer not in position to make a full attack at the beginning of the round will not make a full attack. Haste doesn't help them make any more full attacks. It doesn't help archers make full attacks either, but they get to make full attacks more often.

Haste is supposedly changing from a spell that equalizes the number of melee and ranged full attacks to one that exacerbates the inequality.

2. Manyshot. For the rare occasions that an archer can't make a full attack, there will now be manyshot, ensuring that mid level archers can always make multiple attacks.

IMO, 3.0e archery was powerful but not overpowered. OTOH, 3.5e archery looks like it will be overpowered no matter what they do to GMW and Rapid Shot. The change in haste and the addition of Manyshot to the core rules remove old balancing factors and add new inequalities to the system.

 

[Kai Lord]

Bracers of Archery are not obscure for archer builds.

Bracers that aim for you? An embarrasment to any self-respecting archer. D&D is more than just mechanical bonuses to die rolls my friend. Such crutches are indeed obscure in any campaign I favor. Concessions can be made for magic weapons, as the hit and damage can be attributed to it better slicing through armor (to hit bonus) and flesh (damage bonus). But the character is still doing the work. Bracers of Archery have too much of the "item doing all the work" vibe to them to be viable in any of my campaigns.

They are staple. You'd be stupid not to drop 5k gold on one as soon as you had the cash available.

You and I obviously have very different opinions of what's stupid in a campaign. Items that wussify the heroes are right out for me, but apparently you're arguing in favor of anything that confers a substantial statistical bonus to a character's combat effectiveness. I take it all the mid level fighters in your campaigns are all running around with double monkey-gripped Mercurial Greatswords? I mean, if they could afford it they'd be stupid not to....

Weapons with vanilla bonuses are pretty much staple in any campaign. Any Wondrous Item gets into the realm of obscure advantages, because they all vary in their existence from campaign to campaign.

Because to many, "Crazy Merlin's Discount Magic Shop" with rows of magic Bracers priced to be competitive with the DMG is quite stupid indeed....

 

[Hypersmurf]

But the character is still doing the work. Bracers of Archery have too much of the "item doing all the work" vibe to them to be viable in any of my campaigns.

Is the same stigma attached to Longbows of Distance or Speed?

Defending weapons? Gloves of Arrow Snaring?

They all do things the character couldn't achieve through his own innate skill.

Boots of Striding and Springing? Gloves of Swimming and Climbing? Vest of Escape? Pale Green Ioun Stone? They all give competence bonuses.

Why is the competence bonus granted by the Bracers necessarily "aiming for you"? Why not "allowing you to realise your full potential"?

Let's have a target-shooting contest. But you can't use those Bracers, they aim for you.
Okay, but you can't use your +5 Bow either.
That's different.

?!

Because to many, "Crazy Merlin's Discount Magic Shop" with rows of magic Bracers priced to be competitive with the DMG is quite stupid indeed....

And yet it's the default assumption of the Core Rules - in a large enough city, items of a certain market value are deemed to be "available".

Yes, it varies from campaign to campaign, but those variations represent conscious choices on the part of the DM to stray from how the ruleset was balanced.

-Hyp.

 

[Tylias Quill]

Well, what about Power Attack? That's a common enough feat for melee fighters.

At higher levels, the ability to hit rapidly outstrips the ability to avoid being hit. Magic weapons and ability bonuses mean that you'll hit more often than not anyway, and archers can't use Power Attack. Melee fighters can sink all the 'excess' BAB straight into damage. Also, Melee fighters only need 1 stat to do damage; Strength. Archers split up their stats: They need high Dex and Str in order to achieve the same to-hit and damage bonus as a melee fighter who can concentrate on Strength alone (and the strength caps for Mighty bows have already been discussed)

If you hit reasonably often with even with 5 points of your BAB devoted to damage, then the melee damage starts catching up.

The typical True Strike/Power Attack combo also only really works for melee. A True Strike with a missile shot only means that you're not going to miss; it won't help you do damage.

True, you have to take Power Attack in order to do any of this, but I've known most fighters/rangers/paladins to take it. Low investment, high utility.

 

[Kai Lord]

Is the same stigma attached to Longbows of Distance or Speed?

Distance, no. Speed, probably.

Defending weapons? Gloves of Arrow Snaring?

They all do things the character couldn't achieve through his own innate skill.

Boots of Striding and Springing? Gloves of Swimming and Climbing? Vest of Escape? Pale Green Ioun Stone?

Definitely. Boots of S&S get points for cinematic coolness, but the stigma is there nonetheless. As for the others I can say yes without reservation. Little stones that float over your head and make you buff? Please....

Why is the competence bonus granted by the Bracers necessarily "aiming for you"? Why not "allowing you to realise your full potential"?

It doesn't matter. A real hero would dig down deep to hit that potential. There's a fine line between magic items that are tools and crutches. Bracers of Archery cross over into the latter, IMO.

Let's have a target-shooting contest. But you can't use those Bracers, they aim for you.
Okay, but you can't use your +5 Bow either.
That's different.

Well no one would be showing up for target practice in one of my campaigns with Bracers of Archery because they don't exist but to humor you, yes, it is quite different.

Let's say its a rifle competition. One guy shows up and screws his gun into a spectacular tripod that holds it perfectly steady. The other guy has a top of the line scope allowing for pinpoint targetting, but uses his own two hands to line it up in his sights and the strength of his arms to maintain absolute precision.

Who's more impressive? The second marksman, without question.

And yet it's the default assumption of the Core Rules - in a large enough city, items of a certain market value are deemed to be "available".

Only in the default world, Greyhawk. The "default" assumption about the "default" world is moot in a debate that is not campaign specific.

Yes, it varies from campaign to campaign, but those variations represent conscious choices on the part of the DM to stray from how the ruleset was balanced.

-Hyp.

Nope, just conscious choices to play in worlds other than Greyhawk, which the Core Rules most certainly support. And its not assumed even in Greyhawk that every archer of sufficient level will instantly stumble into a large town selling Bracers of Archery, so they really have no place in a discussion comparing the standard archer of any given level against the standard swordsman of equal level.

You can always say "well random kickass magic item 'X' will make this guy more effective", but that goes for every character concept.