D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 - Beating myself over combat rules :(

[Vegepygmy]

Vegepygmy what do you mean "you can't ready an action out of combat"????

I'm referring to page 26 of the 3.5 DMG, where it says: "Don't allow players to use the ready action outside combat," and then gives the example of a player declaring that he's covering a door with his crossbow outside of combat, and says: "It's okay for a player to state that he's covering the door, but what that means is that if something comes through the door he's unlikely to be caught unaware. If the character coming through the door wasn't aware of him, he gets an extra standard action because he surprised the other character, and so he can shoot the weapon."

The game's developers did not intend for Ready actions to be used outside of combat. You do so at your own peril.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I think you're confusion lies in you're understanding of awareness...

Ironically, it's the other way around.

 

[Li Shenron]

I would have allowed the hidden PC to ready an action.

[MENTION=89822]Jon_Dahl[/MENTION] didn't say how the combat started for everybody else (e.g. if one of the two groups did manage to surprise the other, if they met suddenly and combat erupted immediately), so I am assuming that the two groups met and perhaps had some verbal interaction first and the it became clear that combat was starting, hence no surprise round.

I would have just treated the scenario like the hidden PC was granted a surprise round (thus, I would have let him roll his own initiative) but used his action to Ready an attack against the BBEG, which meant that his "initiative count" shifts down and then into the first regular round down until the BBEG's initiative result, thus potentially disrupting his spellcasting.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm referring to page 26 of the 3.5 DMG, where it says: "Don't allow players to use the ready action outside combat," and then gives the example of a player declaring that he's covering a door with his crossbow outside of combat, and says: "It's okay for a player to state that he's covering the door, but what that means is that if something comes through the door he's unlikely to be caught unaware. If the character coming through the door wasn't aware of him, he gets an extra standard action because he surprised the other character, and so he can shoot the weapon."

The game's developers did not intend for Ready actions to be used outside of combat. You do so at your own peril.

But the fact is that the standard action he can take during the surprise round can be "ready an attack". He should roll initiative already in the surprise round, so once he's done that roll, he's very much within combat and can use all the possible combat actions with no problem.

 

[irdeggman]

But the fact is that the standard action he can take during the surprise round can be "ready an attack". He should roll initiative already in the surprise round, so once he's done that roll, he's very much within combat and can use all the possible combat actions with no problem.

Correct and this is probably how it would have best played out.

Pre-combat:

Spot (and or Listen) checks for all to check for awareness. Those who win get a surprise round.

Surprise round proceeds as normal per the rules - roll initiative and take a single action (standard, move, etc.) Ready is a standard action.

Then proceed to the the normal combat round.

 

[Omegaxicor]

[MENTION=61624]Madeiner[/MENTION] : Either your arguments are confused or you misunderstand what I have said, either way I don't understand your points

[MENTION=40109]Vegepygmy[/MENTION] : I didn't remember that passage, I disagree with the rules there so yes by RAW I was wrong, it seems without knowing it I have always HRd that because it makes little sense to me

 

[Jon_Dahl]

But the fact is that the standard action he can take during the surprise round can be "ready an attack". He should roll initiative already in the surprise round, so once he's done that roll, he's very much within combat and can use all the possible combat actions with no problem.

I agree with you 100%. The only problem is here is that I started the surprise round from a clear table; I ignored what had been discussed before the surprise round and simply asked the player what he wanted to do. He wanted to cast a spell straight away. It would've been much better if I had asked about the ready action. But no, I simply asked what he wanted to do and this is what I got.

IMO the situation was tactically difficult:
Attack in surprise round (enemy is flat-footed, which possibly is a benefit because BBEG dex modifier was +5) and hope you will win the initiative, which you do. During the first round ready an action to disrupt spellcasting => Win.
Ready an action during the surprise round to disrupt spell-casting. However, the enemy rolls extremely poor initiative and finally when it's your time to cast a spell, your party is surrounding the enemy who is casting on the defensive. You fail your Wisdom check and cast the lightning bolt, thus killing your friends but the BBEG succeeds in Ref save and receives insignificant amount of damage => Lose?

I'm not trying to justify anything, because I had a TPK but I sincerely - from the bottom of my heart - hope that no one sees this situation as a complete DMing failure. Imagine the players reaction if I had advised him to do something that ultimate caused a friendly fire incident, killing one or more PCs?

Note: Of course he could've yelled that his attacking with a spell, thus alerting his comrades not to get too close or in the way BUT BBEG would've heard it also.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I DO think the problem was either allowing a Readied action outside of combat OR failing to acknowledge that the "Surprise Round" wasn't so much a standard action but in fact an Immediate action in the middle of the BBEG's turn.

Either way, as you can see by the different opinions of people here, you are not alone in not knowing how to rule this situation and, as stated above, the best solution is just to redo the encounter from the HPC's action

EDIT: Unfortunately it WAS a DMing failure because either situation was a bad ruling which is the DMs responsibility, but the law of "S*&$ Happens!" seems appropriate...

 

[Jon_Dahl]

I DO think the problem was either allowing a Readied action outside of combat OR failing to acknowledge that the "Surprise Round" wasn't so much a standard action but in fact an Immediate action in the middle of the BBEG's turn.

Either way, as you can see by the different opinions of people here, you are not alone in not knowing how to rule this situation and, as stated above, the best solution is just to redo the encounter from the HPC's action

My players will not accept this easily, because they are excited about their brand-new characters. They have already written pages of background stuff and stories for their new characters. I'm afraid that trying to re-do the combat would be akin to suicide.

 

[Omegaxicor]

Fair Enough, my group hate remaking characters, good luck with your next campaign (or this campaign if you are continuing with a separate party)