D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Charge - How to Fix it, and why it's important.

[Magius del Cotto]

Just to clarify what I meant...

Creatures A and B are 60 feet away from each other. Creature A readies a charge action against B if B charges. B charges, so A's ready action takes effect. A charges 60 feet into B. B does not move at all.

Creatures A and B are 60 feet away from each other. Creature A readies a charge action against B if B runs full speed away. B starts to run full speed away, so A's ready action takes effect. A charges 60 feet into B. B does not move at all.

Seems a little wierd.

I don't know if the rules support this, but in these specific cases, I'd say that the movements take place at the same time. In the first one, that would mean that both would only move 30' before the charge is ended. In the second, this would mean that while character A can charge all they want, character B still has a 60' lead on him, and unless character A has some way of moving faster than character B (10'/second faster, to be precise), then character B would get away. It's what makes sense, and that's how I'd run it if I were in charge.
Of course, that's just me.
Magius out.

 

[hong]

Several years of experience with a paladin who always has his flying mount (a small paladin with a half-celestial war dog)

I suppose 3 months isn't really that long to hold a grudge.


Hong "personally, I think hit points are broken" Ooi

 

[Artoomis]

I suppose 3 months isn't really that long to hold a grudge.


Hong "personally, I think hit points are broken" Ooi

??? What are you talking about ???

If you are referring to how long 3.5e has been out, that's completely irrelevent to the point I was making - I was comparing a charging paladin to other melee characters to show how they did not overshadow them. I've had this character for years, and the 3.0e rules set serves just fine to make that comparison, showing how "Charge" does not need to be totally "nerfed" to somehow fix a non-existent problem with game balance.

So, what WERE the problems with Charge?

1. Using a "Readied Action" to gain a Charge with a turn in it. Not the end of the world, but a rule abuse, certainly.

2. Too many "Charge" multipliers, especially with Rhino Hide armor included. This was fixed with changing Rhino Hide to 2d6 when charging instead of a multiplier. It is not not possible to get 4X damage on a charge (with core rules at least), no matter what feats you take, spells you use, or items you have. 3X damage is possible, but at the levels at which this starts to become common, the straight, non-mounted fighter or barabrian is doing more damage in a round anyway.

3. Sometimes it was a bit too easy to set up a charge (at least some thought so). This was fixed by adding in restricted terrain rules and disallowing charging through allies (though this last move was wrong-headed, as explained in my first post). My experience in play showed that this was not really a significant problem - I usually had to spend one round just setting up the charge, and Ride-By Attack often left me in a poor position for a second attack, requiring ANOTHER round to set up the next charge.

If my kind readers know of anything else that was "wrong" with charge in 3.0e, please let me know so I can be sure to address it in my note to customer service.

 

[drnuncheon]

Well, the reasoning of "you can't charge through your friends" makes sense to me. You're allowed to pass through allied creatures' squares freely, but that implies cooperation from both parties - in a charge, one person is moving and can't slow down for anything without breaking his momentum.

What I think should happen is there should be some sort of mechanism for avoiding the overrun - not an automatic 'get out of the way', but something like a Reflex save. This would apply for allies or enemies alike.

With that, you can charge past your allies (hoping they'll make their rolls to get out of the way, and possibly inflicting damage on them if they don't) as well as trampling through a line of foes to reach your primary target. Fair all around, and more plausible to boot.

J

 

[Artoomis]

What I think should happen is there should be some sort of mechanism for avoiding the overrun - not an automatic 'get out of the way', but something like a Reflex save. This would apply for allies or enemies alike.
J

Good idea.

What do you think of a Reflex save to get out of the way, failure means Overrun for enemies and -2 to the attack roll (cumulative for each ally) to the charge for allies.

 

[drnuncheon]

Good idea.

What do you think of a Reflex save to get out of the way, failure means Overrun for enemies and -2 to the attack roll (cumulative for each ally) to the charge for allies.

That sounds good. Another (harsher) option would be to say the charger has two options if his ally fails the save: overrun him, or break the charge and only perform normal movement.

J

 

[Artoomis]

That sounds good. Another (harsher) option would be to say the charger has two options if his ally fails the save: overrun him, or break the charge and only perform normal movement.

J

That seems overly harsh. I like my option. I'll have to think about it, but right now it sounds like a good proposal for a house rule - I think it is too much of a change for just an errata-type fix.

 

[FrankTrollman]

I honestly can't see why there should be a "charging through allies" penalty at all. While in the real world you could certainly bump into a friend pulling a stunt like that - in the real world you could also hit your friends while swinging a sword.

The resolution on the game simply isn't fine enough to do that. The game can't handle chances smaller than 5% - so the "dissasterous failures" that happen (rarely) in the real world are simply abstracted out of the game.

There is zero chance of bumping into your friend when you run by them - there should be a zero chance of bumping into your friend when you charge by them.

-Frank

 

[Artoomis]

I honestly can't see why there should be a "charging through allies" penalty at all. While in the real world you could certainly bump into a friend pulling a stunt like that - in the real world you could also hit your friends while swinging a sword.

The resolution on the game simply isn't fine enough to do that. The game can't handle chances smaller than 5% - so the "dissasterous failures" that happen (rarely) in the real world are simply abstracted out of the game.

There is zero chance of bumping into your friend when you run by them - there should be a zero chance of bumping into your friend when you charge by them.

-Frank

Logic aside, the reason for such a penalty is simple game-balancing mechanics if you happen to be one who thinks that charging is too easy to do if allies are not counted as some sort of obstruction.

The logic is the easy part (either for or against, really), it the game balance mechanics that are tough. Obviously, not everyone will be statisfied no matter how it ends up.

(P.S. - In this case, the flavor text logic goes something like, "If your ally fails the Reflex Save, that means he failed to get out of your way fast enough, and you ended up making a sudden move of some sort that caused you to go slightly off-blance during the movement portion of teh charge, resulting in an attack penalty ... A tumble check at DC 20 negates the need for the Reflex Save from your ally."

 

[FrankTrollman]

If two allies are charging after the same fleeing kobolds - how often should they bump into each other?

If you said "less than once per minute" - that is an event too infrequent for D&D to handle at all.

If there is even a 1 chance in 20 of this problem occuring, then the fact that the two friends will have to charge through each other on each of their actions every round means that after 10 rounds (60 seconds), there is but a vanishingly small chance that the two friends will not bump into each other.

That's ridiculous.

And players charging through each other is not unbalanced - as the benefits of charging are not overall greater than the benefits of full attacking.

-Frank