D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Charge - How to Fix it, and why it's important.

FrankTrollman said:
...And players charging through each other is not unbalanced - as the benefits of charging are not overall greater than the benefits of full attacking.

-Frank

I agree. But I am trying to get various points of view and propose a rule to WotC that most folks would see as the most reasonable.

The changes I proposed in my first (edited) post are, I think, the minimal that can be made to make the Charge action a viable tactic. The question on the table really is whether we should try to get WotC to go even go further than that.
 
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silentspace said:
Just to clarify what I meant...

Creatures A and B are 60 feet away from each other. Creature A readies a charge action against B if B charges. B charges, so A's ready action takes effect. A charges 60 feet into B. B does not move at all.

Creatures A and B are 60 feet away from each other. Creature A readies a charge action against B if B runs full speed away. B starts to run full speed away, so A's ready action takes effect. A charges 60 feet into B. B does not move at all.

Seems a little wierd.

Here's the way I see it:

1) Creature A 'readies a charge' if B charges. B charges, so A gets his readied action.

In the real world, A is quicker (he's going first in initiative order), sees B begin to charge, and runs at him before B gets a chance to move (B is still doing whatever B was doing in his previous round).

2) Creature A sees B getting ready to run while he's still doing his last round's actions, and creature A makes a charge, hitting creature B just as he starts to bolt.
 


Update

Here's what I have from WotC so far:

Thank you for your input and recommendations. We'll be sure to pass them along to the appropriate team.

*******************************************
Chris
Wizards of the Coast - Customer Support
Website: <http://www.wizards.com>
Game Support Phone: 1-800-324-6496
Monday through Friday, 9 AM - 6 PM PST
Corporate Phone: (425) 226-6500
*******************************************
*Please quote this email in your reply*

That may be all I ever here from them, for all I know.

As for the e-mail I sent, here it is verbatum:

The Charge action has a few problems with it, and the published errata take the wrong approach. I’ll give the bottom line of how to fix it first, and then explain why it should be fixed this way.



The four changes that are actually needed to fix the Charge action are:



1. Restore Overrun to the way it is written in the PHB.

2. Change the Charge action so that you CAN charge through allies as with any other movement (as it was in 3.0).

3. Change Ride-By Attack so that you may ignore the normal Charge rule that forces you to go to the closest space to your opponent, while preserving the "straight-line" rule and the restricted terrain rule.

4. Specifically allow a "Readied" Charge action, but make it clear that the single move action allowed with that Charge would be the total movement allowed in the round.



Here is why:



For items (1) and (2) above: As published in the 3.5 PHB, an enemy could avoid your charge if you used the Overrun action, but an ally could not. Errata were published to "fix" this by disallowing the Overrun action when charging.



This ruling severely handicaps Charge as a legitimate tactic. The Trample feat becomes useless if you cannot overrun as part of a Charge. On the other hand, if you could Overrun as part of a Charge, then you have the problem of why can't allies move when opponents can? So either Overrun is allowed or Trample is disallowed as a feat. The obvious, simpler, more consistent choice is to allow Overrun as written.



For item (3) above: Ride-By Attack is also nearly impossible. The Ride-By Attack feat needs to allow one to actually ride-by your opponent instead of charging up to the nearest square, which would, in most cases, prevent the Ride-By Attack from happening. Either the Ride-By Attack feat needs to be eliminated or slightly changed to specifically allow one to actually ride-by the opponent charged. The latter is the more obvious, simpler, more consistent choice.



For item (4) above: You do not seem to be able to Ready a Charge any more (except with a bit of a creative interpretation). This is too severe a restriction on a legitimate tactic form 3.0e. The easiest fix to this to avoid the 3.0 abuse of this tactic is to simply require that a Readied Charge uses up all movement for the round



It may be that some feel that mounted charges were too effective and thus unbalancing, but several years of experience with a paladin who always has his flying mount (a small paladin with a half-celestial war dog) makes it clear that such a character still does not do better in combat than a straight fighter or a barbarian. In certain situations he does better in melee, in others he does worse. Strictly following the published errata (no Overrrun) together with the "closest space" rule makes this type of character nowhere near as good in melee as any other PC designed for melee.
 

My personal feeling is that Over-run needs to be changed.

First, anybody that avoids the over-run should be knocked prone.

Secondly, you can charge through allies, but if they avoid you, they are knocked prone.

That would solve it.

The reason for knocking prone ... is that there should be some drawback when a mounted knight charges through your square even if you try to get out of the way and avoid the charge.
 

Endur said:
...First, anybody that avoids the over-run should be knocked prone.

Secondly, you can charge through allies, but if they avoid you, they are knocked prone...

That might be a good solution, but I think it would be too much for the 3.5 team to consider for errata.
 

Endur said:
My personal feeling is that Over-run needs to be changed.

First, anybody that avoids the over-run should be knocked prone.

Secondly, you can charge through allies, but if they avoid you, they are knocked prone.

That would solve it.

The reason for knocking prone ... is that there should be some drawback when a mounted knight charges through your square even if you try to get out of the way and avoid the charge.

That makes sense for a knight charging on horseback, but isn't that what the Trample feat is for?
 

Endur said:
The reason for knocking prone ... is that there should be some drawback when a mounted knight charges through your square even if you try to get out of the way and avoid the charge.

You do know that you don't have to be mounted to do an Overrun, right?

Hmm. That reminds me though...in 3.5 you can overrun and trample twice as many people with your new extra-wide mount.

J
 

drnuncheon said:
You do know that you don't have to be mounted to do an Overrun, right?

Hmm. That reminds me though...in 3.5 you can overrun and trample twice as many people with your new extra-wide mount.

J
No, you can't. You can't overrun more that one creature a round. Overrunning requires a standard action.
 

The requirement that you must charge to one specific square is kind of silly IMO. I mean, if I can run up 60 feet in a straight line to square A and hit somebody why shouldn't I be able to run up 60 feet in an equally straight line to square B and hit them from there instead?
 

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