3.5 high level woes and Paizo's hand in it.

[Wulf Ratbane]

I really agree. Sagiro and I were discussing this last night, as we've just hit 19th level in a game that still has a couple of years to go. He's starting to find it challenging to run combats and prepare for games; I found the same thing. I'm looking forward to seeing how it's addressed in Pathfinder.

I can recommend a couple of things real quick (but knowing Sagiro, he's on to these tricks already):

PREP WORK/DM SIDE

1) Skill points for NPCs don't matter.

To be more precise, the skill ranges for NPCs exist to provide a challenge for the PCs-- so just put them where they need to be to serve that function. For most monsters, the DCs of all their natural abilities (eg, poison DC) are set at 10 + 1/2 HD + ability mod. I recommend the same for monster/NPC skills.

2) Use the new statblock format. I get a lot of mileage from this site:
http://mikael.borjesson.net/dnd/monster-list.asp

Pick a monster-- any monster-- and print a sample page. You should get the new format on the top half of the page, leaving you a whole half a sheet for notes. My game prep consists of about 5 minutes of printing out those statblocks (one for every monster that might possibly make an appearance), and maybe 10 minutes of making notes for anything that deviates from the raw statblock.

(Most of my game prep is spent making maps for my projector, which is a much more fun way to spend my prep time.)

AT THE TABLE/PLAYER SIDE

3) Ignore attacks of opportunity caused by moving into melee. I want my players in combat. My players want to be in combat. I remove obstacles that cause them to hem and haw about how to move to get into combat. Basically, if you start your turn in a non-threatened square, you can do anything you want that turn without provoking an Attack of Opportunity, including moving into/through threatened squares.

4) Use my "fix" for iterative attacks.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-rules-discussion/248004-iterative-attacks.html

That fix allows for batch rolling all attacks at once.

If Sagiro has anything else specifically that I can help with, let me know.

 

[RangerWickett]

I'm looking forward to the Pathfinder rules, and I've dug the Pathfinder adventures a ton. You guys being free to have your own setting and do your own stuff has fixed nearly all my small critiques of the Dungeon adventure paths.

I guess I just got dissatisfied with some of the early changes I saw, which focused on adding more stuff to core classes, rather than fixing some of the high level structural woes I was most worried about. Especially after working on the latter Burning Sky adventures, I'm a little sick of high level "rocket tag" style games. Hell, we gave our final villainness Tarrasque-esque immortality just so she'd last through a few rounds of combat in the big climax.

The one game I play in, the GM switched to 4e, and my own group decided to switch genres and try World of Darkness for a bit. At this point I feel like I'm too far out of the loop to help with any sort of Pathfinder playtesting. If there's an overview some place of what's changing, I'd be thrilled to see it.

 

[Piratecat]

I'll point him to your post. Thanks.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm a little sick of high level "rocket tag" style games.

Allowing PCs to use Action Points to re-roll failed saves is a good thing.

Allowing BBEGs to use Action Points to re-roll failed saves is better.

Allowing BBEGs to use Action Points to take an immediate action is best.

There may still be a little salvo of "rockets" but you'll have to deplete action points on both sides before there's much risk of an unexpected knockout.

(Your fights should be more Rocky Balboa and less Mike Tyson.)

Hell, we gave our final villainness Tarrasque-esque immortality just so she'd last through a few rounds of combat in the big climax.

If the BBEG is alone (truly Solo) then give her 1 action point per PC, and multiply her hit points by the number of PCs in the party.

If the BBEG is part of a group (ie, she has allies, so economy of actions is not quite so crucial) then give her 1 Action Point and double her hit points.

 

[mhensley]

Thinking more on this, it really was not just Paizo. The fact that you had a whole E6/E8/E12 movement indicates that 3E had high level issues beyond the APs.

I don't think this is just an issue with 3e but with D&D as a whole. I've never liked high level play in any version. Once you get to the point where ogres aren't scary and you laugh at town guards with crossbows, it loses all sense of realism to me. YMMV and I'm sure it does.

 

[Runestar]

Serpent kingdoms has this cr18 hydra which can cast 7 spells each round as a 15th lv sorc. How's that for economy of actions?

What about status effects? They are more common at higher levels, and can easily shut down foes, especially solos (some don't even allow saves, such as white raven hammer, which auto-stuns for 1 round, though the damage is crap).

 

[Voadam]

Things I don't like about 3E



3) Not enough modules or DM support. There just weren't enough modules being released by Wizards for 3E. Back in the 80s with AD&D, my favorite thing to do at the book store was browse the modules and campaign settings for something cool to purchase. As a DM this really fired up my imagination. Also books like the guide to Villains and Campaign Cartographer were great. And who didn't love reading the Van Richten Guides. Stuff like that was missing, until the final year or so of 3E. I know there are more players than DMs in any group, so it makes sense to put out more material for players to buy. But if you help the DM make a kick ass campaign world or a superb adventure, you keep people in the game. Sure put out some splat stuff; but I really think things like the Van Richten guides are better models for what both DMs and Players would buy. You could have a whole line of monster hunting books (Guide to Dragons, Guide to Greenskins, Guide to Demons), that give players character ideas and hunting strategies and give DMs material to use in an adventure and interesting twists.

What a weird complaint.

I have over 50 Dungeon Crawl Classic modules for 3e. I don't want to try and count how many paizo 3e adventures there are from Dungeon and Pathfinder. I have more than a dozen Complete Guide to X and Slayer's Guide to X books.

3e is the most adventure and DM supplement supported of any RPG game ever.

If you stick to just WotC stuff then yes, 1 AP, Book of Challenges, Return to the Temple, and City of the Spider Queen were pretty much it for 3.0 modules, and Savage Species for exploring existing monsters in depth as players, but 3.5 had a bunch of modules and Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, Fiendish Codices I & II, and Lords of Madness. Plus there was Dungeon providing multiple Adventures every month throughout all of the 3e era from day 1.

If you limit to WotC only for 3e then it does not matter what Pathfinder does or does not do, they are not WotC. If your complaint is lack of adventures and DM support then you just are not taking advantage of the support out there.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Allowing PCs to use Action Points to re-roll failed saves is a good thing.

Allowing BBEGs to use Action Points to re-roll failed saves is better.

Allowing BBEGs to use Action Points to take an immediate action is best.

There may still be a little salvo of "rockets" but you'll have to deplete action points on both sides before there's much risk of an unexpected knockout.

(Your fights should be more Rocky Balboa and less Mike Tyson.)



If the BBEG is alone (truly Solo) then give her 1 action point per PC, and multiply her hit points by the number of PCs in the party.

If the BBEG is part of a group (ie, she has allies, so economy of actions is not quite so crucial) then give her 1 Action Point and double her hit points.

You know, seeing this makes me remember what action points are similar to: hit points.

Seriously, it's the same principle. "OKay, you're hit, but you can spend some points to avoid getting seriously hurt. Let's call them hit points."
"Okay, you're hit and don't have enough hit points. You can spend action points to avoid getting seriously hurt!"

Once again I am convinced that Torgs possibility points did it right. They are both 4E style action points (get an extra chance to do something better) and 3E style action points or D&D style hit points (get a chance to avoid harm inflicted to you.)

Maybe there can be made a case that multiple "points" to cover different areas are okay - but should we use two mechanics to do exact the _same_ thing - both action points and hit points seem to exist to avoid hurt!

Of course, I'd say it is okay to do ths with a 3.5 "derivate", because you'd have to build it from the ground up again.

 

[drothgery]

The biggest.

What else compares?

Spellcaster multiclassing?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Spellcaster multiclassing?

Heh. I'd argue that is definitely a high-level issue.

A Clr1/Wiz1 is not nearly so hamstringed as a Clr10/Wiz10.