D&D 3E/3.5 (3.5) Improved trip, two weapons

[Flarlarlar]

I'm new to d&d and slightly confused about the Improved Trip feat:

If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.

I have a rapier in my main hand and a sickle in my off hand. I trip a guy with the sickle. Can the "free attack" be with a different weapon than the one used for the trip? What Base Attack Bonus will it use?

Also, I heard that a trip attack can be done with your legs even if you have both hands full, counting as an unarmed attack. But I can't find rules on that, and it'd open a couple more questions... which would mostly be the ones on the previous paragraph.

Thanks in advance

 

[Dross]

I have a rapier in my main hand and a sickle in my off hand. I trip a guy with the sickle. Can the "free attack" be with a different weapon than the one used for the trip? What Base Attack Bonus will it use?

If you use the sickle to trip, you have to use the sickle to gain the "free attack". The book says "as if you hadn't made the trip attack" and you did not use the rapier in that instance so you could not use the rapier.

Also, I heard that a trip attack can be done with your legs even if you have both hands full, counting as an unarmed attack. But I can't find rules on that, and it'd open a couple more questions... which would mostly be the ones on the previous paragraph.

That phrase is used with the monk description, and really only relates to the monk because they are "living weapons" (at least from my point of view because it is there and not in the more general trip section).

 

[Visigani]

I disagree with Dross. It does not state you must use the weapon you attacked with. It simply states you get another melee attack as though you hadn't made the one you just did. In essence, the 'slate' is wiped clean to right before you took your swing.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Have you checked the WotC's old Rules of the Game column?

Scroll down to March/April 2007, and you'll find a series of three or four articles called "Unarmed Attacks" which, not surprisingly, discusses unarmed attacks.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I'm new to d&d and slightly confused about the Improved Trip feat:

Well, unfortunately it doesn't look like you're going to find any consensus here. But ignore those other posters; I know what I'm talking about.

I have a rapier in my main hand and a sickle in my off hand. I trip a guy with the sickle. Can the "free attack" be with a different weapon than the one used for the trip? What Base Attack Bonus will it use?

Dross is wrong and Visigani is right. You get a free melee attack as if you hadn't used that part of your attack sequence to trip; in other words, if you full attack at +6/+1 BAB, and you use your +1 BAB attack to trip, you get a free melee attack at +1 BAB, not +6 BAB. That's all it's trying to say.

If you have Improved Trip but don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, you can use an unarmed attack to trip without provoking an AoO, and you can "follow up" with an armed melee attack as if you hadn't just used that attack to leg-sweep the guy or whatever. You aren't stuck "following up" with a completely ineffective unarmed attack (that would also provoke an AoO), just because you used an unarmed attack to perform the trip. That would be stupid.

Also, I heard that a trip attack can be done with your legs even if you have both hands full, counting as an unarmed attack. But I can't find rules on that, and it'd open a couple more questions... which would mostly be the ones on the previous paragraph.

The rules are right there in the Trip attack description: "You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack." Now look at Strike, Unarmed on page 121: "...which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attack."

Yes, you can trip someone with a head butt; it makes perfect sense if you actually stop and think about it!

 

[kitcik]

Let's say the OP is two-weapon fighting and is low level and therefore only gets 2 attacks: main hand & off hand.

They use their main hand (rapier) to attack first. Now they use their off hand (sickle) to trip.

Are you saying they can now use their main hand (rapier) for the follow-up Improved Trip attack, thereby converting an off hand attack to a main hand attack via Improved Trip?

I would have read the "as if" clause to force you to use your offhand attack as the follow up (and I don't think you can suddenly flip your weapons between hands) since you normally would not get 2 main hand attacks - thereby forcing you to use the sickle, but I bow to the expertise of the board if people disagree.

 

[Flarlarlar]

if you full attack at +6/+1 BAB, and you use your +1 BAB attack to trip, you get a free melee attack at +1 BAB, not +6 BAB. That's all it's trying to say.

If you have Improved Trip but don't have Improved Unarmed Strike, you can use an unarmed attack to trip without provoking an AoO, and you can "follow up" with an armed melee attack as if you hadn't just used that attack to leg-sweep the guy or whatever. You aren't stuck "following up" with a completely ineffective unarmed attack (that would also provoke an AoO), just because you used an unarmed attack to perform the trip. That would be stupid.

Wait, can attacks with the main hand weapon be replaced by unarmed ones? As in, using the main's BAB?
I just read that you can do an unarmed strike with any other body part (thatswhatshesaid) counting as off-hand with light weapon. So for a BAB +0 with no feats, a full attack would be at most: one strike with whatever weapon your main hand is holding and one unarmed (off-hand) strike. Soooo... if you attack with main hand, and then do a leg-sweep which manages to trip... then... I... um... I'm going to put this smily here

 

[Vegepygmy]

Are you saying they can now use their main hand (rapier) for the follow-up Improved Trip attack, thereby converting an off hand attack to a main hand attack via Improved Trip?

No, because the only reason they got that second (off-hand) attack is because they opted to use Two-Weapon Fighting (the style, not necessarily the feat), which requires that you actually use a second weapon.

In such a situation, Improved Trip allows you to make an immediate melee attack as if you hadn't used your sickle attack to trip...but if you don't make that free attack with the sickle, you don't get to make one at all, because the only reason you were allowed to make the trip attack was that you were using a sickle.

 

[kitcik]

I agree I and I believe that was the OP's underlying question .

 

[Vegepygmy]

Wait, can attacks with the main hand weapon be replaced by unarmed ones? As in, using the main's BAB?

If you use the full attack option, you get one attack for every 5 or fraction of 5 BAB. These attacks can be made with any weapon (including unarmed strike) you have "in hand." So if you are holding a longsword in one hand and a dagger in the other, and you full attack at +11/+6/+1 BAB, you can swing the longsword at +11, kick somebody at +6, and throw the dagger at +1.

Does that answer your question?

Now, if you are using the weapon itself (not just your BAB) to get an extra attack, you're using the Two-Weapon Fighting rules, and you can't swap an unarmed strike for the off-hand attack you gained because you TWFed. So, using the same example as before (longsword and dagger, no TWF feat), you'd be full attacking at +7 with your longsword (+11 BAB, -4 penalty to regular attack for TWF), kicking at +2 (+6 BAB, -4 penalty to regular attack for TWF), stabbing with the dagger at -3 (+1 BAB, -4 penalty to regular attack for TWF), and using the extra off-hand attack you gained by TWFing to throw the dagger at +3 (+11 BAB, -8 penalty to off-hand attack for TWF). Any of the first three attacks can be made with any weapon you want; the last one has to be with the dagger, because choosing to use the dagger is what allowed you to make that extra off-hand attack at all.

I just read that you can do an unarmed strike with any other body part (thatswhatshesaid) counting as off-hand with light weapon. So for a BAB +0 with no feats, a full attack would be at most: one strike with whatever weapon your main hand is holding and one unarmed (off-hand) strike.

Correct. You'd get your regular attack at -4 (+0 BAB, -4 penalty to regular attack for TWF) and your off-hand unarmed strike at -8 (+0 BAB, -8 penalty to off-hand attack for TWF).

[/quote=Flarlarlar]Soooo... if you attack with main hand, and then do a leg-sweep which manages to trip... then... I... um... I'm going to put this smily here [/QUOTE]In this case, because the only reason you got to do that leg-sweep was that you chose to attack with an off-hand weapon, you're stuck using the off-hand weapon to follow up.