D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 is the REAL reason everyone is angry

[Maggan]

Chess has had the same rules for centuries.

But didn't i take thousands of years of variations to establish the "current" set of Chess rules?

/M

 

[hewligan]

SHARK et al. - what would make you happy? A game that never changed, a game that only changed every 10 years, a game that changed every 20? I mean, at some point they are going to bring out new revisions of their rules. 3.5 got bloated, and complex, and incredibly daunting to pick-up for a new (or lapsed) player.

WoTC is a company, yes, but that does not mean they are evil. Do they want to make money, yes, I am sure they do, but 4 sounds interesting, and it sounds like it addresses some key problems SOME of us have with 3 and 3.5, and it is of course not compulsory to buy it, and I am sure that you will still find players for your games. This is not the same as a company you are getting a service from quietly increasing their fee.

The player base for DnD is small. In my mind, the complexity of 3 and 3.5 helped contribute to a reduction in the play-base, but perhaps more worryingly to a refinement of the remaining base into a more hardcore group. There were LOTS Of rules to learn, and people learned them. The barrier to entry grew, while the MMORPG offered an incredibly low barrier to entry, albeit to a cut down experience.

DnD needs a new revision that expands the user-base beyond the hardcore. They need to win over players, and, even more importantly, GMs that are not then hit with 1 hours prep for a 1 hour session.

4 does not invalidate your previous library of books. 3.5 can live on in your game for as long as you and your players want. 4 may bring in new players, it may help to reinvigorate the hobby a bit. It may fail, of course, but WoTC are at least trying to broaden the appeal, freshen up the product, and offer something more accessible.

I can never understand this mentality where people get angry when a company releases a new product. I see it on Apple Mac forums, with people saying "How dare Apple release a new MacBook. I only bought mine last week, and they never mentioned that a new one was coming. Now it is obsolete!". It is not obsolete. It is just as functional as it was when you bought it, and if it could do the job for you yesterday it can probably do the job for you today.

 

[DragonLancer]

SHARK et al. - what would make you happy? A game that never changed, a game that only changed every 10 years, a game that changed every 20? I mean, at some point they are going to bring out new revisions of their rules. 3.5 got bloated, and complex, and incredibly daunting to pick-up for a new (or lapsed) player.

The point is that D&D doesn't need a new edition yet. 3.0 has been out for 7 years, 3.5 less so. A revision like 3.5 every 5 years wouldn't be so bad but not an entire new edition in such a short time.

3.5 isn't bloated, unless you try to add everything released into it. As for daunting, it's not more daunting than anyone picking up D&D for the first time under any edition. I'm all for WotC seeking new players and expanding the customer base but there comes a point where the releasing new edition after new edition is more detrimental than helpful.

I hope that 4th ed works out for them, but I still feel that its too soon for a new edition by a long way.

 

[Nebulous]

The point is that D&D doesn't need a new edition yet. 3.0 has been out for 7 years, 3.5 less so. A revision like 3.5 every 5 years wouldn't be so bad but not an entire new edition in such a short time.

3.5 isn't bloated, unless you try to add everything released into it. As for daunting, it's not more daunting than anyone picking up D&D for the first time under any edition. I'm all for WotC seeking new players and expanding the customer base but there comes a point where the releasing new edition after new edition is more detrimental than helpful.

I hope that 4th ed works out for them, but I still feel that its too soon for a new edition by a long way.

I feel that it is too soon as well, but i wouldn't mind so much if they made substantial changes that truly, truly made it a better and more balanced game. For me, to truly get behind 4th edition, the whole magic system needs to be revamped. But i don't think that's going to happen. Even moving toward the mechanics in Arcana Evolved would be a start.

i've mentioned this in other threads, but i would like to see a base system in the Core books, supplemented by optional magic systems in a Book of Magic.

 

[RFisher]

I can never understand this mentality where people get angry when a company releases a new product.

Well, take the 2e to 3e change. This was a significant change. Yeah, 2e + all the supplements could look a lot like 3e, but it was still a significant change. To a lot of people it didn't feel like 3e was an improved edition of the older game. It felt like 3e was a new game. A new game that had its own merits & flaws, but different enough that it didn't merit taking the older edition off the market. If 3e had been "d20 fantasy" or "alternate D&D", then these people would have received it better. I even reckon that a lot of them might have been much more likely to buy & play 3e if it hadn't taken the game they loved off the market.

Now, I'm not arguing that 2e should've stayed on the market. I'm not arguing that this reaction is entirely rational. But I don't think it is that hard to understand.

To take the Mac analogy, to these people it wasn't like a new, faster Mac coming out. It was as if Apple discountinued all Macs when releasing the iPhone & called the iPhone the new Mac.

 

[wingsandsword]

SHARK et al. - what would make you happy? A game that never changed, a game that only changed every 10 years, a game that changed every 20? I mean, at some point they are going to bring out new revisions of their rules. 3.5 got bloated, and complex, and incredibly daunting to pick-up for a new (or lapsed) player.

Never? I could live with that. There are still plenty of players playing 1st edition AD&D and that have never upgraded. I even know a few second-generation 1e players taught by their parents. I don't plan to ever upgrade at this point, I've got enough 3.x material to game for the rest of my life, and the people I play with aren't D&D hardcore fans who would probably bother to upgrade either.

Every 20 years? I could live with that too, it's generational, you learn 4th edition, your kids may well learn 5th, their kids might learn 6th, and so on.

Every 10 years? That's the way D&D was before now! 1st Edition AD&D came out in 1978, 2nd Edition came out in 1989,and 3rd Edition came out in 2000. That's over a decade between main editions, now it's less than 10. I'd be complaining a lot less if they announced it at least 2 years from now so it would continue to be 10 years between editions.

Why do we really need new editions? That's the $64,000 question. What is going to be in 4e that really makes it worth it? Electronic gimmicks? Flashy books? Removing some classes?

 

[danzig138]

Why do we really need new editions?

Obviously, you don't need a new edition. Others seem pretty jazzed about it. What I don't get about all the moaning and female dogging, is why? This doesn't invalidate your game. It doesn't invalidate you as a person. WotC isn't going to come to SHARK's home and take him to the gulag for not switching. I have an investment not dissimilar from SHARK's, and no plans whatsoever to switch, but I'm not going to go online and B&M about the new edition. Why? Because it doesn't matter to my gaming at all.

Why is this going to cause otherwise seemingly rational people to start acting like petulant children?

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I can never understand this mentality where people get angry when a company releases a new product. I see it on Apple Mac forums, with people saying "How dare Apple release a new MacBook. I only bought mine last week, and they never mentioned that a new one was coming. Now it is obsolete!". It is not obsolete. It is just as functional as it was when you bought it, and if it could do the job for you yesterday it can probably do the job for you today.

A better analogy would be if Apple released a new OS completely different than OSX and made both versions incompatible with each other.

WITH NO WARNING.

After being asked CONSTANTLY "hey, do you guys have a new OS coming out?"

I think that's the part that people are really anxious / angry about.

For those of us, namely DM's, who have spent a fair amount of money on 3.5 over the last 5 years, it's a bigger concern. Youre right, I can stay on 3.5 as long as I can find players. The concern becomes when I need to find players and they want to play 4E.

Also new 4E DM's will need to be concerned with the same issues. That and the further fracturing of their fanbase as people like me who are going to stay with 3.5, those who are still running old school games (Od&D, 1st and 2nd ed) not to mention those who are running other variants (C&C and True 20). They better hope that they are able to pull in an ungodly amount of new / lapsed players like thy did in 2000 otherwise I think that they're going to have a problem.

I'm one of the guys on this board who was willing to for the most part to give WOTC the benefit of a doubt, especially concerning the DI. Now that it's going to be 4E focused I have no use for it all, not saying that it's going to be a bad resource, it just not going to be GOOD resource for me. Once again assuming that 4E is a radical departure from 3E, if I'm able to use my 3.5 material with minimal conversion then it may not be that bad.

 

[Fifth Element]

Never? I could live with that. There are still plenty of players playing 1st edition AD&D and that have never upgraded. I even know a few second-generation 1e players taught by their parents. I don't plan to ever upgrade at this point, I've got enough 3.x material to game for the rest of my life, and the people I play with aren't D&D hardcore fans who would probably bother to upgrade either.

If you're happy with the older editions, more power to you. Please play those older editions, and enjoy yourself. Have fun. Games are fun. Playing games you like is really fun.

Many other people would like to try the new edition, thinking it will most likely be lots of fun.

The new edition does nothing whatsoever to reduce your enjoyment of the older editions. Go play them. Why complain that others are having fun in a different way?

 

[Fifth Element]

A better analogy would be if Apple released a new OS completely different than OSX and made both versions incompatible with each other.

WITH NO WARNING.

What, is it May 2008 already? Man, my calendar is really wrong. I thought May 2008 was more than 8 months away. Yikes.