3.5 - Is your game better?

I was stating, although the rules are slightly better, they do not seem to change the game enough to be worth the time and money involved. It is not the $100 for the three books, it is more the time required to convert all of the old material and the money spent buying 3.5 versions of many of my 3rd party material. I feel I have to switch to 3.5 if I am going to continue in the hobby, otherwise all new materials are near worthless to me and it will get difficult finding new players.
I still don't buy it. This is an argument that didn't work for switching from 1E to 2E, nor 2E to 3E. The response remains the same as it was then - nobody is holding a gun to your head. Whether you like it or not, if you don't want to use it (for whatever reasons) you don't have to buy it. There is one thing that is not sold with the rules that is VITAL for playing any version of D&D and that is your imagination. If you have that you don't need anything else - not updated rules, prepackaged campaign settings, adventures, etc., and therefore it should be largely unimportant if you like the new rules or not. If you are actively using that vital ingredient that you are supposed to supply yourself it should not ultimately matter to you if nobody published so much as a leaflet for D&D ever again.

I hate to sound like the old geezer gamer that I am but back in the day, when 1E was still referred to as "Advanced", we played 12 hours or more every Saturday with religious regularity for almost a decade and only used perhaps a dozen modules. We made it up. We created our own adventures, we wrote our own house rules, adapted material from books, movies, TV, and other RPGs. We did it all by the seat of our own pants because we didn't have a glut of 3rd party publishers trying to do it for us. The overwhelming amount of support we now enjoy for D&D has made gamers soft.

Hell, it made me soft and I'm getting crustier by the day. As my first 3E campaign wound down I realized I had actually lost some of my skill at making up the campaign as I went along. I ran any number of campaigns for years at a stretch with never more prep for a weekly game than page of vague notes - if that. Looking at my 3E game I dreaded the idea of trying to prep something for the PC's to do in the next session without having a module to run them through. That dread didn't come from 3E being any more complex or facing up to doing massive stat blocks, it came from 3E being LESS complex and yet having a line of writers doing up stat blocks FOR me.
Again, I like the changes, but they were not necessary. The old system was still thriving.
As does 2E and 1E and Basic D&D, etc. People still play those versions. They play them because they LIKE THEM BETTER, not because they were too poor to pay for new books.

If you say you actually like a lot of the 3.5 changes then your arguments about not wanting to spend $100 on new books, or spending time on adapting material have to hold almost as much water 5 years down the road as they do right now. 5 years from now will you still be playing 3E because you still don't want to pay money for new books, or to keep up with the latest materials, or because you don't want to put in time to adapt things to a new system? Hell, the people who HAVE made the switch to 3.5 are currently putting in more time doing adaptations of 3E material than you are going to if you stick with 3E for quite some time to come. And really, I mean really, how difficult is the vast bulk of the adaptation going to be?
The changes are similar to MS upgrades from Win98 to Win 98 2nd edition and the ME. Sure there were changes, some of them even beneficial, but it was really not a new system and was not really necessary and was definitely not worth the price of a new OS.
And thus people generally did NOT go rushing out to buy Win98 2nd revision to replace Win98 unless they DID have a neurotic need to have only the latest and greatest. Simply having a newer, slightly better OS didn't make the previous OS any less useful (although I've heard nothing particularly praiseworthy about ME).
I do have to say I have enjoyed this thread. I did want to hear what people thought of 3.5 now that they have had in for a little bit, not what they thought of my opinion. My goal was not to persuade anyone to dislike it, but to see if I was in the minority or to see if I was overlooking something. From what I have read, most people like at least some of the rules and many people think they were not necessary, but just as many people are happy with the new rules and attribute them to making their games better.
And there you have it - gaming like it was in the old days. Everyone picks and chooses bits and pieces that they like from everywhere and fit them into their games. Whether they use 3.5 in whole, or just small parts, it tends to improve their games because their creativity has been stirred into motion after an extended period of disuse. It isn't so much the 3.5 rules in and of themselves that do the improving, it's the proactive attitude they seem to have required of gamers to deal with them one way or another. Even if they are legitimately examined and then totally rejected the potential user has still just made a complete survey of his existing game and how he wants to run it.
 

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Ahar! The changes made to the 3.5 salty dog, arr,I mean ranger has been a foin, foin change indeed. I actually have a third level line rat, armm, ranger in moi game, oo 'as no intention o' switchin out!

All too often 'as I seen a sneakin' thief, or calloused bosun, err, barbarian, a takin' but a single level o' the woodlansd reaver, umm, ranger, to make most o' their lighly skinned, urr, lightly armored, abilities.

Aye, an' the changes to the book o critters beats me old un all hollow!

The Auld Grump
 

D+1 said:
And thus people generally did NOT go rushing out to buy Win98 2nd revision to replace Win98 unless they DID have a neurotic need to have only the latest and greatest. Simply having a newer, slightly better OS didn't make the previous OS any less useful (although I've heard nothing particularly praiseworthy about ME).
Hear, hear.

I've only run a few test games, so far, and will be running my first 3.5-converted game in my main campaign tonight. I have no concerns that it will be significantly different or poorer for the experience. What it will be, however, is less work for me, the DM. Even after 3 years of 3E, we still have to mentally review certain mechanics every time we perform them. When this occured, we'd have to search through the books multiple times, then interpert often vague passages. With 3.5, I don't have to do this.

Improved formatting, tweaked information based on player requests and experience and a general intent to enhance the aspects of play that I enjoy the most, all while making my job as DM easier. Players have more options, and more interesting things to do with their characters. Demons and devils have become things to be rightfully feared (not just things to be feared until 15th level, at worst). Spell lists have been improved, layouts have been expanded, rules have been refined and more material has been included from multiple sources. I like it lots.

Under 3.0, I only needed four house rules. Under 3.5, I may be dropping them all (but potentially adding a new one).:)

Oh, and uh....Arr! Me mateys! (how was that?)
 

D+1 said:
As does 2E and 1E and Basic D&D, etc. People still play those versions. They play them because they LIKE THEM BETTER, not because they were too poor to pay for new books.

hear, hear. ARRRRiginal D&D('74) is the only true game. All the other editions are landlubbers...

And thus people generally did NOT go rushing out to buy Win98 2nd revision to replace Win98 unless they DID have a neurotic need to have only the latest and greatest...

Hold fast and Prepare to be boarded...some of us, arrrrrr still enjoying DOS. ;)
 

diaglo said:
Hold fast and Prepare to be boarded...some of us, arrrrrr still enjoying DOS. ;)

And there are even some who still remember the _original_ DOS. (No, not the pansy microcomputer travesty of the name.)


Hong "prefers OS/390" Ooi
 

Shiver me timbers! Are ye saying that ye salty dogs will only play the ranger ifn he be a woodland fighter on par with the regular fighter? It do seem to me that thar ranger should be more o' a hunter than a fighter. Good progression of BAB is critical, but d10 hit die can be keelhauled for all I care. I do agree with Psion, though -- they didn't quite go far enough with the concept of flexibility with the class, but they came closer than any D&D ranger to date. I also agree with ForceUser, though -- I don't particularly care for spellcasting rangers either. The WoT Woodsman or the Midnight Wildlander be alt.rangers that are worth their weight in pieces of eight.
 

hong said:
And there are even some who still remember the _original_ DOS. (No, not the pansy microcomputer travesty of the name.)


i be talking of punch card...binary, too. and large tapes on reels. ;) arrrr.
 


Ugghhh...I played in one session using 3.5e rules, and disliked about everything that I've seen.

I ended up playing a fighter because wizards and sorcerers are so nerfed! (In fact, no one in the party played a wizard or sorcerer!) Buff spells are practically useless now. It used to be that you did the spell once and didn't have to worry about a lot of record keeping. Now it's like "Okay, we finished off these monsters, now let's look for some more monsters to kill before this spell wears off!" Maybe harm and haste were slightly overpowered in 3e, but in 3.5e they're nearly useless!

I hate the new weapon rules. They are way too bothersome. Why can't a halfling use a dagger as a short sword? Sure the rules may provide slightly more "realism", but I've found that they just add more complications

As for the ranger, I really can't say that I like the 3.5e ranger all that much better. Really I think that it's a half-@$$ed fix. Now instead of getting two weapon fighting you can get archery OR two-weapon fighting. I've seen a lot better rangers posted on the alt.ranger project.

I don't think I'm going to be making the switch to 3.$e anytime soon.
 

hong said:
If you regress any more, you risk losing opposable thumbs.

Arr, by the gods, man, he's a pirate! He doesn't have bloody thumbs. He has hooks! Lost one hand to a SHARK, he did, and the other... well, the other was lost in a tragic disagreement over a tavern wench...
 
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