3.5 makes Savage Species useless!!!
- Thread starter Leopold
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Droogie
Explorer
Ack. Is Savage Species really that broken? I happen to like that book, although I haven't studied it completely to notice all the changes that 3.5 has inflicted on it.
Please tell me its just a few of the level adjustments that are tweaked and nothing more. I haven't bought the MM 3.5 yet - can anyone tell me if the lizardman LA is still +1?
Please tell me its just a few of the level adjustments that are tweaked and nothing more. I haven't bought the MM 3.5 yet - can anyone tell me if the lizardman LA is still +1?
Graf
Explorer
I have to disagree with Scott and some of the others who are saying that wizards never made any claims about Savage Species having a special place related to 3.5.
Wizards certainly did make a pretty big point of talking about how Savage Species was at least part way between 3.5 and 3. While I have to admit that if you were watching the fine print closely with an appropriate degree of skeptism about their corperate source I have difficulty blaming people for taking them at their word.
Being a savage species game now I can say that the books are incompatible if you're a stickler for detail. The monsters are significantly different between the editions. For a monster the PCs will fight once dropping a few spell like abilities and giving out some more hit points isn't such a big deal; but it's big for a PC.
On the other hand Savage Species was never "aggressively"* balanced in the first place. So it's not like the utility of the book as a players supplement drops a whole lot.
*=You can kind of talk about balance all day. I'd say that in most of the core books Wizards has acted to aggressively errata powers and spells that seem imbalancing. This was pretty obviously not the case with SS.
Wizards certainly did make a pretty big point of talking about how Savage Species was at least part way between 3.5 and 3. While I have to admit that if you were watching the fine print closely with an appropriate degree of skeptism about their corperate source I have difficulty blaming people for taking them at their word.
Being a savage species game now I can say that the books are incompatible if you're a stickler for detail. The monsters are significantly different between the editions. For a monster the PCs will fight once dropping a few spell like abilities and giving out some more hit points isn't such a big deal; but it's big for a PC.
On the other hand Savage Species was never "aggressively"* balanced in the first place. So it's not like the utility of the book as a players supplement drops a whole lot.
*=You can kind of talk about balance all day. I'd say that in most of the core books Wizards has acted to aggressively errata powers and spells that seem imbalancing. This was pretty obviously not the case with SS.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
SS will require more house rules for 3.5 than most, but really it shouldn't be more than a few at a time...the basic rules and guidelines remain the same (giving HD and LA's over several levels, for instance), and a LOT of the additional material is still quite useful (anthropomorphic animals, templates, PrC's, spells).
The only way this makes SS useless is if you only used SS as a collection of LA's. In which case, why would you drop $30 on a book in the first place when you could find fairly reliable fan LA's on monsters.
I still think SS didn't go far enough....I couldn't play my half-celestial gelatinous cube cleric with the rules it presented...but it did give me a nice base to work from if I wanted to do the work and make him myself.
The only way this makes SS useless is if you only used SS as a collection of LA's. In which case, why would you drop $30 on a book in the first place when you could find fairly reliable fan LA's on monsters.
I still think SS didn't go far enough....I couldn't play my half-celestial gelatinous cube cleric with the rules it presented...but it did give me a nice base to work from if I wanted to do the work and make him myself.
I do think it is somewhat unfortunate that one of the main points of buying SS,(the la adjustments for 3.0 MM) has been subsumed by 3.5. LA should be in the 3.5 MM but I feel a little hosed about buying SS.
I personaly probably would not have spent the money I did for what in the end would up as some really cool templates I like alot, and some feats and spells I think are nifty. As a $10 pdf it would be worth it, as a $40 book no.
I am not including the monster classes as the example minatour on the WOTC page pretty much was the whole rules chapter on how to do it.
Actually Races of Faerun is even worse than SS, as I can say the book really comes down to the tiefling/assimar feats in my like column, and so much reprinted hash and some generally bad feat design in others.
People's mileage will of course vary, for myself, my confidence in WOTC recent product quality, is low enough that the next product they put out is really going to have to speak quality to me, and basicaly blow my socks off with originality for me to buy it.
(3.5 release excepted.... grrr)
I personaly probably would not have spent the money I did for what in the end would up as some really cool templates I like alot, and some feats and spells I think are nifty. As a $10 pdf it would be worth it, as a $40 book no.
I am not including the monster classes as the example minatour on the WOTC page pretty much was the whole rules chapter on how to do it.
Actually Races of Faerun is even worse than SS, as I can say the book really comes down to the tiefling/assimar feats in my like column, and so much reprinted hash and some generally bad feat design in others.
People's mileage will of course vary, for myself, my confidence in WOTC recent product quality, is low enough that the next product they put out is really going to have to speak quality to me, and basicaly blow my socks off with originality for me to buy it.
(3.5 release excepted.... grrr)
ruleslawyer
Registered User
I never thought the LAs were at all a core part of SavS; my assumption was that the monster classes, design-your-own-class, estimate-your-own-LA, and templates, feats, and spells were the main sell(s). The prefab LAs seem almost an afterthought, IMHO.
BTW: Half-fiend most certainly is worth ECL +4... once you hit ECL 8 or thereabouts. IMHO, no one should play a 0-HD creature with a level adjustment until one's class levels equal one's LA. At that level, half-fiend is worth it. Wings, resistances, SLAs, ability boosts, smite good... I'd say so. If you'd like a lower ECL, trim the wings and use it at +3.
BTW: Half-fiend most certainly is worth ECL +4... once you hit ECL 8 or thereabouts. IMHO, no one should play a 0-HD creature with a level adjustment until one's class levels equal one's LA. At that level, half-fiend is worth it. Wings, resistances, SLAs, ability boosts, smite good... I'd say so. If you'd like a lower ECL, trim the wings and use it at +3.
Of which you are right, but as with" most behind the designers veil books" mileage can really vary.
The how to arrive at an ECL section hit me as a so what chapter.
These type of calculations and judgement calls have been done over here at enworld since the begining, so the chapter wasnt as enlightening of an experience as it would be to someone who hadnt spent much time thinking about it. It was a very well written and informative guideling on ECL determination.
Of course many would question the validity of any "system", that requires the imput of so much subjective judgement calls, that said "system" will yield wildly different results given different people.
Not me, but some will.
The how to arrive at an ECL section hit me as a so what chapter.
These type of calculations and judgement calls have been done over here at enworld since the begining, so the chapter wasnt as enlightening of an experience as it would be to someone who hadnt spent much time thinking about it. It was a very well written and informative guideling on ECL determination.
Of course many would question the validity of any "system", that requires the imput of so much subjective judgement calls, that said "system" will yield wildly different results given different people.
Not me, but some will.
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