D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Monks and two weapons

[Silver Griffon]

Does the monk description still say that there is "no such thing" as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed or with a special monk weapon? If so, then you could hardly use a feat that reduced your off-hand penalties...
On the other hand, if it does not say this anymore than I would have to agree based on what's been said so far that it appears they can now be used together.

edit: Gilwen beat me to it. I was distracted by this whole "work" thing my boss keeps rambling on about

 

[Camarath]

Let's assume that you can use TWF with the monks FoB for armed attacks.

Lvl 1 monk unarmed with STR of 10 gets -2/-2 unarmed.

Lvl 1 monk with a quarterstaff with STR 10 get's +0/+0
(since the TWF reduces the penalty and the penalty is -2 I reduced it 0, I suppose one could argue that is should be +0/+4)

I don't think it would work like that. I think the Lv 1 monk with TWF and FoB would get these attacks -4/-4/-4 (+1 attack -2 to attack form FoB and +1 attack and -2 to attack form TWF0.

 

[Camarath]

I had chaged the post but it was moments after i had written it and you had replied to the post in the mean time and I wasn't aware of your reply until after I changed it. I wasn't try anything sneaky

Bryan

I know. I just didn't want people to think I am crazy or putting word into your mouth.

 

[Camarath]

Does the monk description still say that there is "no such thing" as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed or with a special monk weapon?

It only says there is no off-hand with regard to Unarmed Attacks only it does not say any thing about monk weapons. That text is under Unarmed Attack entry and not Flurry of Blows.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

The weapon enchantment Speed grants an additional attack which I would assume stacks with all other additional attacks (except Haste which it states it does not stack with). Are you saying that this additional attack would not stack with one (or more) granted by TWF or FoB?

No, the logic is that the FoB isn't an attack -- it's an extraordinary special ability, and hence it replaces a full attack (unlike Speed or Haste, which adds an attack to a full attack). Essentially, a FoB and a full attack are two different, non-compatible actions (which happen to look a lot alike). Like I said, the logic is a little weak..

Stronger reasoning is this: TWF doesn't give you an extra attack (look at the "Benefit" portion of the feat, not the flavor text): all it does is reduce the penalties for the off hand for making a second attack. Anyone can fight with two weapons -- TWF just makes it easier to do. The monk doesn't suffer any off-hand penalties to a Flurry of Blows; hence TWF has no effect on it (she's Flurrying, not TWF). That still leaves the door open for ITWF, though -- one could fall back on the argument in the paragraph above, that they're different actions.

Edit: I see others beat me to the second argument.

Another way to look at it is this: Anyone can fight with two weapons in a full attack action. So if the TWF feat applies to FoB, can a monk without FoB make three attacks in a round, using normal two weapon fighting off-hand penalties? But wait! A monk doesn't suffer off-hand penalties when fighting unarmed! Therefore a monk always gets one more attack with Flurry of Blows than the table says, at the FoB -2 penalty: it's her normal off-hand attack, but without the off-hand penalties she doesn't suffer! Silly monks -- they should flurry at -2/-2/-2!

 

[Gilwen]

The weapon enchantment Speed grants an additional attack which I would assume stacks with all other additional attacks (except Haste which it states it does not stack with). Are you saying that this additional attack would not stack with one (or more) granted by TWF or FoB?

It grants another regular attack not another offhand attack. TWF does not apply until you take an off-hand attack.

So if I had a lvl one fighter and I had a weapon with speed I woudl get +1/+1 attack OR I could take 3 attacks (one being offhand) regardless if I was using the FoB or TWF rules.

edit: I meant to say monk at +0/+0...to many things running in my head
-B

 

[Gilwen]

I don't think it would work like that. I think the Lv 1 monk with TWF and FoB would get these attacks -4/-4/-4 (+1 attack -2 to attack form FoB and +1 attack and -2 to attack form TWF0.

TWF feat doesnt grant you an extra attack.
If you can stack them then a 20th lvl monk would get 6 attacks (more if you allow ITWF and GTWF into this).

Taking an off-hand attack is a full round action and so is FOB. You can't take two full round actions. So any way you cut that cake you only can get one extra attack. You either Flurry or you use the two weapon fighting rules.

Bryan

 

[sithramir]

Correct. They are both full round actions and you can't use both.

Plus the book said for monks to go pray for "enlightenment" (see previous post).

 

[Camarath]

They are not Full Round actions but grant you additional attacks when you make a Full Attack. You could rule that FoB is a separate action if you wanted but you can't do so with TFW which is explicitly part of a Full Attack Action. FoB does not talk about how long it takes to perform this special action and I can't find that information else where in the book. I think it is resonable to assume that it uses a Full Attack Action just like TWF. And since both abilities modify the same action I would find it odd if they did not stack.

 

[Camarath]

TWF feat doesnt grant you an extra attack.

Page 160 PHB[3.5]
"If you wield a second weapon in your off-hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon."

Page 143 PHB[3.5]
"Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because of your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two waepons or a double weapon (see Two-Weapon Fighting under Special Attacks, page 160), or for some special reason (such as a feat or a magoic item), you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks."


Using two weapons would indeed seem to give you an additional attack. The feat doesn't give you the attack it just reduces the penalties you suffer for taking it.