D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Monks and two weapons

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Email response from Skip at tsrsage@aol.com. I expect it will make its way into "Sage Advice" and the FAQ eventually.

 

[LokiDR]

For what its worth, here's the Sage's Answer:

That is very nice, but it isn't supported by the rules. The rules do not say or even clearly imply that TWF and FoB don't work together. Untill the FAQ writes new rules, I think offical judges will have to allow them to stack.

Besides, what is wrong with using Shuriken with Greater TWF, FoB, Rapid Shot, and Speed for a total attack of +13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3/-2 Now, if only I could find a way for alchemist fire be qualified as a monk weapon....

 

[Camarath]

What about Flaming Shurikens?

Personally I don't think 2 additional attacks would be that powerful. You have to use a 1d6 weapon (1d4 sai and 1 shuriken), you can't use Power Attack (except with one head of a quarterstaff), and you can't wear armor. I think that a two-handed weapon with power attack build would have a good bit better damage (and defense) potential.

 

[CrimsonTemplar]

The way I see it, if a Monk spends a feat on TWF they should be able to flurry with a double weapon & the penalties should be cumulative, so it's be -4/-4/-4 for a flurrying monk with a quarterstaff using TWF. Even a high strength monk wouldn't be that great with it.

 

[LokiDR]

The way I see it, if a Monk spends a feat on TWF they should be able to flurry with a double weapon & the penalties should be cumulative, so it's be -4/-4/-4 for a flurrying monk with a quarterstaff using TWF. Even a high strength monk wouldn't be that great with it.

The abuse comes from stacking flurry, TWF, rapid shot, sneak attack, and suriken. Besides that, the flurry eventually doesn't get any penalties.

 

[Ranger REG]

They fixed the monks flurry and the TWF path, but both in different incompatible ways. Monks hit better now but not as often as with ITWF and GTWF.

Well, it is as often as ITWF, but not GTWF. But to compensate, the penalties are reduced and then later negated as you go up in the monk class.

 

[Camarath]

The abuse comes from stacking flurry, TWF, rapid shot, sneak attack, and suriken. Besides that, the flurry eventually doesn't get any penalties.

The maxium sneak attack a character could get with full flurry is +5d6 at 20th level (monk level 11 and rogue level 9). This character would have a BAB of +14 so would have attacks of +12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+5/+5. A normal 20th level rogue would have a sneak attack of +10d6 and BAB of +15. With GTWF he would have attacks of +12/+12/+7/+7/+5/+5. If each character hit with every attack then a monk/rogue would get +40d6 from sneak attack and a full rogue would get +60d6 from sneak attack. This is a diffeance of +20d6 in favor of the strait rogue and if we include rapid shot it increases to +25d6 in favor of the rogue (with speed +30d6). 11 monk levels seem a fine trade for 2 additional attacks (when unarmored and with monk weapons) to me.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Well, I'll be damned. It does seem like you can use TWF with Flurry of Blows and it seems as though it may be intentional. But all the penalties for fighting with two weapons applies such as off-hand attack being only half the strength bonus since Monks only receive full strength bonus with Unarmed Strikes.

Maybe Andy worked out the math that a TWF monk using Flurry of blows with a quarterstaff or other weapon still does substantially less damage than an Unarmed Striking Flurry of Blows monk because of the higher damage dice.

Interesting.

Anyone able to run the numbers on whether or not a Monk with TWF, ITWF and GTWF with a monk weapon and using Flurry of Blows (preferably Quarterstaff) can outdamage a monk using Flurry of Blows and Unarmed Strike. That could be interesting to see if the combination is balanced.

 

[LokiDR]

The maxium sneak attack a character could get with full flurry is +5d6 at 20th level (monk level 11 and rogue level 9). This character would have a BAB of +14 so would have attacks of +12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+5/+5. A normal 20th level rogue would have a sneak attack of +10d6 and BAB of +15. With GTWF he would have attacks of +12/+12/+7/+7/+5/+5. If each character hit with every attack then a monk/rogue would get +40d6 from sneak attack and a full rogue would get +60d6 from sneak attack. This is a diffeance of +20d6 in favor of the strait rogue and if we include rapid shot it increases to +25d6 in favor of the rogue (with speed +30d6). 11 monk levels seem a fine trade for 2 additional attacks (when unarmored and with monk weapons) to me.

Take that last level of rogue on your pure rogue and replace it with monk.

+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/+2/+2. That is an extra 10d6 sneak attack over the straight rogue. Shuriken are amunition, so it is pretty cheap to enchant large numbers. With a high dex, most of these could be hitting. 70d6 out to 30'. That is far more damage than anyone has a right to dish out. The question is wether the loss of attack bonus and creatures being immune to sneak attack balance this out.

 

[Camarath]

Take that last level of rogue on your pure rogue and replace it with monk.

+9/+9/+9/+4/+4/+2/+2. That is an extra 10d6 sneak attack over the straight rogue. Shuriken are amunition, so it is pretty cheap to enchant large numbers. With a high dex, most of these could be hitting. 70d6 out to 30'. That is far more damage than anyone has a right to dish out. The question is wether the loss of attack bonus and creatures being immune to sneak attack balance this out.

Thats true but a full rogue could also get +11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+4/+4 using Rapid Shot and GTWF which would be the same sneak attack damage (70d6). One level of monk would only add 1 attack (possible 10d6) and would give a -2 to all attacks and prevent the character from using armor. Since the rogue can dish out that much damage through other means I don't see Flurry of Blows as the cause of this problem.