D&D 3E/3.5 3.5: Out With A Whimper

[Reynard]

The recent Dragon editorial got me thinking. The advent of 4E is not like the advent of 3E. 3E is not "dead" the way 2E was, and 4E is therefore not a true ressurection the same way that 3E was. Moreover, 4E has, its been stated repeatedly, been in the development stage for quite some time (2 years at least). So, given this, why are they letting 3.x die a slow and painful death, rather than going out with a bang. it seems to me that getting people playing, getting people excited would be the best way to ensure that those people jump on board when 4E comes around.

Why not have an "adventure path" that serves as both a "the last, greatest 3rd Edition campaign you'll play" and as a 4E "preview" -- a 3 or 6 part mega adventure that involves stuff that is going to be part of 4E? Why not introduce ways to "play 4E now" -- classes and races and monsters the "4E way" under the 3.x rules? Why not cater to the DMs, convincing them to do these 4E things and get the entire group excited about 4E?

I think the answer is resources. WotC just doesn't have the resources to do that and get 4E ready for launch. And if that is the case, it indicates that WotC is pushing 4E out too fast, too early. I don't theink WotC was lying last year when they told us 4E wasn't going to be announced in 2007 and wasn't going to appear in 2008 -- at the time they said it, they were telling the truth. But something changed. Maybe Hasbro got involved, or WotC financial didn't like the 2007 Q2 reports, or maybe someone in charge just decided it was time. in any case, WotC chose to announce and launch 4E earlier than intended, and all those resources that could have helped bridge the gap between the editions were suddenly dedicated solely to 4E. Now, Dragon and Dungeon are suffering because there's no staff to make them awesome. 3.5 is being allowed to wither, because there's no one there to make sure people keep playing it, and more importantly keep buying stuff for it, until 4E arrives.

And that means a pretty wide window (six months or more) of WotC relying on preview books profits as their sole source of income. Tha doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

 

[delericho]

I think the answer is resources. WotC just doesn't have the resources to do that and get 4E ready for launch.

I agree.

And if that is the case, it indicates that WotC is pushing 4E out too fast, too early.

I disagree. While it would be nice to see them do both, if they have to choose then I say go with a really good 4e over all other priorities.

But just because they don't have the resources to do half a dozen things (4e, e-Dragon, e-Dungeon, the DI, a 'farewell' AP) at once doesn't mean they don't have the resources to do the most important one (4e).

I've decided not to subscribe to conspiracy theories about the inner workings of WotC. Without information we don't have and won't be getting, they're just empty speculation. Others can choose otherwise, of course.

3.5 is being allowed to wither, because there's no one there to make sure people keep playing it, and more importantly keep buying stuff for it, until 4E arrives.

For me, 3.5e ended with the "Rules Compendium", which is a fairly solid book to be going out on. Otherwise, it's a game, and so it's largely irrelevant what WotC actually do for releases - it will 'go out' however the various playing groups choose to end it.

 

[Reynard]

For me, 3.5e ended with the "Rules Compendium", which is a fairly solid book to be going out on. Otherwise, it's a game, and so it's largely irrelevant what WotC actually do for releases - it will 'go out' however the various playing groups choose to end it.

But itsn't this a problem, for a business standpoint? I mean, WotC has operational costs, right? And for people to say that the previous edition "ended" six months prior to the new edition means that there is a six month void in purchasing, and therefore a six month void in profits. That can't be good. All I am suggesting is that it seems as though there'd have been a plan, to keep people playing and purchasing, during that six month period.

 

[Hussar]

Let's also not forget that they are also forking over a dozen or so free professional quality 3.5 modules through Dungeon over the next 6 months. That's a pretty sweet deal for those who want new stuff.

 

[Dausuul]

The recent Dragon editorial got me thinking. The advent of 4E is not like the advent of 3E. 3E is not "dead" the way 2E was, and 4E is therefore not a true ressurection the same way that 3E was. Moreover, 4E has, its been stated repeatedly, been in the development stage for quite some time (2 years at least). So, given this, why are they letting 3.x die a slow and painful death, rather than going out with a bang. it seems to me that getting people playing, getting people excited would be the best way to ensure that those people jump on board when 4E comes around.

Which people are you talking about? They're already working hard on creating buzz among existing gamers--see the Races and Classes book, and all the tidbits they're throwing us online. As for people who aren't currently gamers, it would be the height of idiocy to make a big push to get them into 3.5E right now, just so they could learn a whole new ruleset six months later.

Why not have an "adventure path" that serves as both a "the last, greatest 3rd Edition campaign you'll play" and as a 4E "preview" -- a 3 or 6 part mega adventure that involves stuff that is going to be part of 4E? Why not introduce ways to "play 4E now" -- classes and races and monsters the "4E way" under the 3.x rules? Why not cater to the DMs, convincing them to do these 4E things and get the entire group excited about 4E?

Probably because it's not that easy. This is a much bigger transition than 3E to 3.5E. You can't just start "doing things the 4E way," any more than you could have "done things the 3E way" in 2E. Transitioning from 3.5E to 4E will involve a disconnect, and there's no way around that.

I think the answer is resources. WotC just doesn't have the resources to do that and get 4E ready for launch. And if that is the case, it indicates that WotC is pushing 4E out too fast, too early.

Huh? That doesn't follow in the slightest. I'd be really mad if WotC took people off 4E development so they could throw what amounts to a retirement party for 3.5E. I'd much rather they kept those people working on polishing and tuning the new edition, so that we'll have a better game to play for all the years we're going to be playing it.

I don't theink WotC was lying last year when they told us 4E wasn't going to be announced in 2007 and wasn't going to appear in 2008.

When did they tell us this and who said it? Direct quotes please, attributed to specific WotC employees. There are a lot of claims flying around about WotC having "lied" about 4E or the 4E release date, but so far no such claim has been verified. They all seem come back to a handful of perfectly truthful statements that got taken out of context.

And that means a pretty wide window (six months or more) of WotC relying on preview books profits as their sole source of income. Tha doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

...and Magic: The Gathering, which brings in more money for WotC than D&D ever did. And assorted other revenue streams. WotC isn't going to go bankrupt in the next six months. The D&D division will have a dry spell, but the rest of the company can carry it through till June, when it will generate a torrent of new revenue as everybody goes out to buy the new core books.

Dry spells are not uncommon in the business world. I myself work in an extremely cyclical business, where we have two huge bursts of revenue each year; the rest of the time, we coast on the profits from those two bursts. It's not a big deal as long as you're prepared for it, and have all your ducks in a row for when the dry spell ends.

 

[Pinotage]

3.5 is being allowed to wither, because there's no one there to make sure people keep playing it, and more importantly keep buying stuff for it, until 4E arrives.

True to a certain extent. Many 3rd party publishers are continuing to actively support 3.5e, namely, for example, Paizo (or at least pending a decision on switching Pathfinder to 4e). In addition, other publishers like Goodman Games released fantastic products like Castle Whiterock as a last 'hurrah' to 3.5e. While WotC may not continue to actively engage in 3.5e, I think you'll find in the wider D&D audience and customers the support will continue. Much like it still does for OD&D, for example, though I think in this instance the following will be greater. Whether that will continue in the market in the future is debatable. I don't think the power of 3rd party publishers should be discounted in keeping 3.5e alive. And I dare say some can do a better job at it than WotC.

Pinotage

 

[Scribble]

The recent Dragon editorial got me thinking. The advent of 4E is not like the advent of 3E. 3E is not "dead" the way 2E was, and 4E is therefore not a true ressurection the same way that 3E was. Moreover, 4E has, its been stated repeatedly, been in the development stage for quite some time (2 years at least). So, given this, why are they letting 3.x die a slow and painful death, rather than going out with a bang. it seems to me that getting people playing, getting people excited would be the best way to ensure that those people jump on board when 4E comes around.

Why not have an "adventure path" that serves as both a "the last, greatest 3rd Edition campaign you'll play" and as a 4E "preview" -- a 3 or 6 part mega adventure that involves stuff that is going to be part of 4E? Why not introduce ways to "play 4E now" -- classes and races and monsters the "4E way" under the 3.x rules? Why not cater to the DMs, convincing them to do these 4E things and get the entire group excited about 4E?

Honestly, I don't think this would be that smart a course of action... A lot of resources would need to be thrown at something like that, with little real idea of the actual payback. Instead, they took two things that sell (monsters, and weird monsters) and produced them in an effort to help DMs end their own campaigns. (If they want.) All resources can now be focused on making sure 4e is ready to go.

Really, they just announced it a little while back. My guess is after D&D experience we're going to start seeing a major increase in the promotional aspect... If they did it too soon they risk a slope off of potential interest... This way they can build interest and release the game right at the climax.

I think the answer is resources. WotC just doesn't have the resources to do that and get 4E ready for launch.

So yeah I agree.

And if that is the case, it indicates that WotC is pushing 4E out too fast, too early.

How are the two ideas related? How does not having (or not wanting to spend) the resources to produce a full campaigns worth of adventures at the end of a systems life, while simultaneously producing a whole new system, indicate anything about WOTC putting 4e out too fast?

I don't theink WotC was lying last year when they told us 4E wasn't going to be announced in 2007 and wasn't going to appear in 2008 -- at the time they said it, they were telling the truth.

They weren't, and they didn't. And they still aren't.

But something changed. Maybe Hasbro got involved, or WotC financial didn't like the 2007 Q2 reports, or maybe someone in charge just decided it was time. in any case, WotC chose to announce and launch 4E earlier than intended, and all those resources that could have helped bridge the gap between the editions were suddenly dedicated solely to 4E.

Back to my earlier point. After D&D experience I'm guessing the promo mode will be in full effect. Right now they're just giving us fanboys (the ones willing to slavor over every little morsel for 8 months straight) something to slavor over. The general population has a much shorter attention span.

Now, Dragon and Dungeon are suffering because there's no staff to make them awesome.

They also can't do what the new format is designed to do. Support 4e, and utilize the 4e tools. They aren't really "suffering..." Just not being utilized yet.

3.5 is being allowed to wither, because there's no one there to make sure people keep playing it, and more importantly keep buying stuff for it, until 4E arrives.

Really I think it would be kind of difficult to convince people to continue buying new material for a system that is soon to be no longer supported. Why waste the resources on stuff that's not really going to sell well?

And that means a pretty wide window (six months or more) of WotC relying on preview books profits as their sole source of income.

That and all the other games and gaming stuff they sell... Aren't their card games actually a bigger source of income then their RPG stuff? I don't know for sure, but I think that's the case...

Tha doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

Shrug. I'm kind of intrigued why they decided to make the announcement before Christmas... Why not time the launch to be just in time for christmas next year... But I don't have their sales info... Maybe May is a big sales month for games? Maybe kids out of school buy a lot of games in the summer?

In any case... when it comes down to it; WOTC has people who have stuff like degrees and training in things like sales and marketing... They tend to know stuff like the best way to market new products much better then people not trained in said field.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Why not have an "adventure path" that serves as both a "the last, greatest 3rd Edition campaign you'll play" and as a 4E "preview" -- a 3 or 6 part mega adventure that involves stuff that is going to be part of 4E? Why not introduce ways to "play 4E now" -- classes and races and monsters the "4E way" under the 3.x rules? Why not cater to the DMs, convincing them to do these 4E things and get the entire group excited about 4E?

If you look at recent Dragon and Dungeon articles based around the Eldrich Evil book (I think that's the title), you'll see that they seem to be promoting the Apocalyptic campaign within 3.5E.

I think the answer is resources. WotC just doesn't have the resources to do that and get 4E ready for launch. And if that is the case, it indicates that WotC is pushing 4E out too fast, too early. I don't theink WotC was lying last year when they told us 4E wasn't going to be announced in 2007 and wasn't going to appear in 2008 -- at the time they said it, they were telling the truth. But something changed. Maybe Hasbro got involved, or WotC financial didn't like the 2007 Q2 reports, or maybe someone in charge just decided it was time. in any case, WotC chose to announce and launch 4E earlier than intended, and all those resources that could have helped bridge the gap between the editions were suddenly dedicated solely to 4E. Now, Dragon and Dungeon are suffering because there's no staff to make them awesome. 3.5 is being allowed to wither, because there's no one there to make sure people keep playing it, and more importantly keep buying stuff for it, until 4E arrives.

An interesting theory, but where are the numbers on the financials?

And that means a pretty wide window (six months or more) of WotC relying on preview books profits as their sole source of income. Tha doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

What about Star Wars RPG and miniatures and D&D miniatures and Magic:The Gathering and...

 

[Klaus]

Probably because it's not that easy. This is a much bigger transition than 3E to 3.5E. You can't just start "doing things the 4E way," any more than you could have "done things the 3E way" in 2E. Transitioning from 3.5E to 4E will involve a disconnect, and there's no way around that.

I remember the "10 ways to play Third Edition now" bits in Dragon Magazine before 3e came out.

From what we've seen, there's some easy stuff to implement, such as:

- static Defenses (formerly Saving Throws);
- Altering of elf racial bonus (-2 Con, +2 Dex becomes +2 Dex, +2 Wis).
- High Elves take on the appearance and fluff of Wood Elves and are renamed Elves (favored class: Ranger) and Gray Elves are renamed Eladrin (favored class: Wizard).
- Etc.

 

[Cadfan]

They can't have an Adventure Path. Paizo would sue them.

On a separate note, who would be buying this adventure path? New players wouldn't want it, and it would be a bad idea to teach them 3e just to take it away. Established players might want it, but probably not enough to matter.