D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 overrun confusion

[tobensg]

A big debate about overrun for you.

It used to be that overrun was only part of a charge, happened during the "movement portion" of the charge, and was considered a trip attack. I read an example in Sword and Fist that went something like this.

Mounted knight has run-by attack, trample and spirited charge. He charges his horse, lances some poor sod for triple damage, the horse hoofs him as part of the charge. Now, since he has ride-by, the horse continues his movement overruns the guy, trips him, and then stomps on his face using trample. Oh my god. So overrun was practically free. A free trip action during a charge.

Okay, so that's what the rules used to say, as absurd as they were. I suspect it has mostly remained the same, but the wording is a bit odd. Overrun is now "a standard action taken during your move, or as part of a charge. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.)," and a charge is a "special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action."

So where is the comma in that overrun sentence? Is it supposed to be "Overrun is a standard action. You can take it during a move or as part of a charge." or is it "If taken during a move, overrun is a standard action. You can overrun as part of a charge."

I assume the later, since charge is a full round action and you can't have a standard action during it. There's also evidence from bull rush to suggest the same thing. "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge", which seems analogous. But does "part of a charge" imply the single attack during your charge? It never really says. Bull rush and overrun are classified as special attacks, so it seems like you could only do one and not attack as well and only at the end of a charge.

The PH then goes on to say:
1) If your opponent doesn't block: "If you were attempting the overrun as part of a charge, you may keep moving," and "the overrun attempt doesn't count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent's square." This would seem to suggest that if I wanted to attack B behind opponent A, I could use my first movement or a charge to overrun and if A avoids the overrun, I can then attack B, because the overrun doesn't take up any action. That sounds good. It doesn't specifically say you can continue your charge AND attack, only that "you may keep moving." But if you can move, overrun, and attack, seems unfair that you couldn't charge, overrun and attack. What does fair have to do with it? I don't know. The rules fairly explicitly say you can't charge someone when someone else blocks your path. Does that mean I can continue "moving" after the charging overrun, but I technically charged opponent A, and I can't charge B?
2) If your opponent does block: "If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal." This seems to imply that I can continue until the end of my movement, from either a normal move or a charge. Great. I can't attack B if I was just moving, because overrunning A is a standard action during a move if A doesn't avoid it. Great. But can I attack B if I'm charging or can't I? I did in 3.0. If I can, then why can't I charge, bull rush someone back 10 feet and then hit him with my sword? The wording is really no different. If I can't, does that mean ride-by attack is much more useless, since I can no longer charge, attack and then overrun? Basically, is overrun a free attack during a charge or not? If so, why is bull rush treated differently? If not, why have they limited ride-by attack to jousting like scenarios?

I sort of have problems with overrun being a free attack during a charge. It does carry penalties, there's always an AoO. If you lose, you don't attack anyone, and you might end up being the one prone. But a free chance to put someone prone, where they now draw an AoO getting up, and you still have a chance to attack someone else? Sounds like a steal to me! It's no longer called a trip attack, so improved trip won't award another free attack, thank god. But what if I have spring attack? Can I spring in (possibly charging, another debate), attack and then continue my movement into my opponent's square, overrunning him? Assuming that overrun isn't "free", I suppose ride-by attack is still useful if I have my horse overrun as part of his charge and I attack as part of mine. There would be no AoO against me, thanks to the feat, but my horse would draw one for overrunning and he can't attack during his charge like he used to, though he'd still trample. I'm okay with that I guess.

I know that's a lot of rambling. But you have to admit there's a lot of interpretations that can be made. Why can't they give us more examples!

 

[Wippit Guud]

Ok, to clear up most of this....

You get a standard action, and a move action. If your move is 30, you can't move 15ft, take standard action, and then move another 15ft.

With overrun, it bascailly means you can hit the opponent at any point in the move, and it's an excemption to the rule above. Meaning you can move 15ft, use the overrun standard action, resolve it, and then finish out our move.


Think of overrun as a 'ride by attack', but you don't strike with a weapon, you just try to knock them down.

 

[Wippit Guud]

With multiple people in the way, it looks like you can overrun one opponent to charge a second opponent. If the oppoennt moves, charge the second person. If he doesn't, and you fail the overrun, you stop, and no attack is made

 

[Waldo]

Alright, so my friend made this post for me. I decided to register so I can reply faster.

Your first post. Overrun can't be a standard action during a charge, because a charge is a full round action that allows an attack.

Your second post. We established that. What if he doesn't move and you win the overrun? That's the debate.

 

[Waldo]

In addition, as I said in my first post, charge specifically says you can't charge someone when a person is in the way. So, technically, you're just charging the first person, not the second. Again, easily debated, that's why I posted the question.

 

[Number47]

I am leaning toward the explanation that a charging overrun is the same as a non-charging overrun, but you get the bonuses, penalties and restrictions of charge. Much as a charging bullrush, in fact.

 

[Wippit Guud]

For the second part, as it's easier to answer, from Overrun description:

If you succeed in knocking your opponent prone, you can continue your movement as normal.

On the first part, found it in charge, doesn't reference charging a back opponent at all:

A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush or overrun an opponent (

So, to sum it all up.

If you charge an opponent, you cannot overun anyone in between (need clear line of sight), but if you're attempting to overrun the person you're charging, you get +2 to the strength test.

If you're making a standard move to attack opponent A, and opponent B is in the way, you may attempt to overrun opponent B. If you succeed in the opposed strength check, opponent B is knocked prone, you continue to move, and can make an attack as a standard action on opponent A (NOT a charge). If opponent B wins the oppoesed strength check, you are pushed 5 feet back out of that opponent's square, and stop.

That sound better?

 

[Waldo]

If you're making a standard move to attack opponent A, and opponent B is in the way, you may attempt to overrun opponent B. If you succeed in the opposed strength check, opponent B is knocked prone, you continue to move, and can make an attack as a standard action on opponent A (NOT a charge). If opponent B wins the oppoesed strength check, you are pushed 5 feet back out of that opponent's square, and stop.

That sound better?

No. Not really. Overrun is listed as a standard action during a normal move. Therefore you have already used your standard action in knocking B prone and can't attack A.

I am leaning toward the explanation that a charging overrun is the same as a non-charging overrun, but you get the bonuses, penalties and restrictions of charge. Much as a charging bullrush, in fact.

That seems reasonable, but that would suggest that you can charge B behind person A if A doesn't block you, since you could attack that B if you just moved normally and overan A. That's a direct violation of the rules under charge, which say you can't charge someone behind another person.

 

[Number47]

You aren't charging them. You are performing a charging overrun.

 

[Waldo]

You aren't charging them. You are performing a charging overrun.

So who are you charging? Who fits the strict rules for charging? The first guy, A or the second, B? If it's A, then how can I attack B once A avoids me? I didn't charge B, it's not allowed, because he doesn't fit the rules of charging. If it's B then you're already ignoring explicit rules.

I shouldn't be able to gain the benefits of charge against B, according to the strict rules. But hell, I ignore rules all the time right? I just want to know what WotC was trying to say, and I'm not sure any of us know.