[3.5] Perform -- Does it annoy you as well?

[Remathilis]

I think the problem is assuming you have to max EVERY perform type out. You can buy less than level+3 ranks in some perform skills and max out one to get your bardsongs.

So a half-elf bard 9 with a 10 int (6 SP) Could have ranks like this

Perform: Sing (12)
Perform: Dance (4)
Perform: String (7)
Perform: Wind (1) <- Just learned.
Gather Info (12)
Listen (12)
Diplomacy (12)
Knowledge, Local (12)

(He'd probably split his knowledge ranks 5/7 for history/local for synergy)

Thats at minimum skill points! Humans and anyone with an int above 11 has even MORE options for an extra few perform ranks or more rogue or diplomacy skills. And he's still getting all his bard songs from his singing ranks.

If you want a variety of abilities, you need to spread yourself abit thin.

 

[Tom Cashel]

I am so glad this was mentioned.

In truth, it annoys me so much that I can no longer sleep at night. I can't eat. I've become impotent. My skin has gone bad and I've grown a pot-belly (which is perplexing considering I no longer eat). I can't get motivated enough to shave, shower, put on deodorant or even go to work at all. My wife says she's leaving me.

It goes without saying that I can barely stand to look at 3.5 books on the store shelves, much less buy them.

I am very annoyed!!!

 

[Michael Tree]

This change is, IMO, the worst thought out change in 3.5.

Look at Peform (Acting)... comedy and drama... I've met incredibly talented actors that can move an audience to tears, but be unable to tell a joke to save their lives. Two completely different styles of performing, and they are lumped under the same heading. I don't find that very limiting.

How about Perform (Wind Instruments), which allows you to play the flute *AND* trumpet, which are two completely different instruments that are handled and played completely differently. I don't find that very limiting.

So what you're saying is that the new Perform skill is just as unrealistic as the old one. The only difference is the amount of amalgamation of performance types.

That's like saying all Craft skills should be merged into a single one... after all, beating a piece of metal into a breastplate and beating a piece of metal into a sword are more similar than playing a flute or trumpet.

The difference between Craft/Profession/Knowledge and Perform is that with the former, every time you take the skill you gain an entirely new capacity that is useful in times and situations where other skills of the same type are not. However, Perform skills all just let you do exactly the same thing (entertain people) in a slightly different way.

Not all bards can dance. Not all bards can sing. Not all bards can act. Not all bards can play instruments. If you want to play that kind of bard, then spend the points that way. If you only want a single Perform skill to rely on, then by all means, do so.

So the classic, standard troubador, who sings, plays a lute or mandolin, dances, and gives speeches and tells stories, has to spend more than half his skill points so he can... what? He's no more entertaining than a Bard with a single perform skill. His additional Performs give him no game mechanical benefits over and above his first.

Actually, there's a big difference when I smash your instruments to little bits, and because you decided not to take any Perform (Sing), you lose the ability to use your bardic music.

So... there is a game mechanic difference between the two... you can't use instrument-based Perform without an instrument.

You're absolutely right. And by that reasoning we shouldn't have a single Base Attack Bonus, but bonuses for each weapon type. That way a fighter will take multiple weapon skills so he can take advantage of different kinds of magical weapons, and so he can have a backup weapon if his primary weapon is smashed by an enemy.

Or we could leave Perform with the same level of abstraction as every other aspect of the D&D game, and be done with it.

Edit: Fixed formatting

 

[Belen]

You all are missing the point. Rangers et al do not have to spend points for-

Survival: Mountaineering
Survival: Desert
Survival: Artic

Yet you are saying that Bards, whose concept revolves around performing should divide their points among a variety of perform types. A mechanic that gave you a number of styles equal to your charisma modifier is far more fair and balanced when you consider everything together. A Bard should be able to walk into town, sing, dance, play and act. That is what they DO!

Yes, I did not like having tons of styles in 3e, but I'd already houserules it. A bard whose knows a number of styles equal to their charisma mod. could have flute, dance, story, but no other woodwinds etc.

So basically, you're all saying that RANGERS deserve more skill points than Bards. A Bard is one-half skill-user, but they have to spend multiple points just to have more than one perform type? That is a load of bull.

And it is obvious that those who like the change do not play Bards that often.

Dave

 

[JPL]

I grow weary of this argument.

To each his own, live and let live, YMMV, etc.

This is time better spend arguing about the revised buff spells or the mystic theurge.

 

[Voadam]

Well, no one forces you to choose a new form of performance each time you get a new rank - I know I don't do it with my bard. Under the 3E system I can play a bard that only uses 1 form of performance as well as a more diversified bard, with either being as capable with regards to bardic music.

Just like you don't have to take all your feats or spend all your skill points, nobody is forcing you.

 

[Zub]

If I were a DM this is what I would do:
Allow bards to use the perform skill untrained, and allow them to take 10 on Perform. This way a bard can max out the perform skill he is most interested in, yet still be able to give a decent performance in the other performance arts. Even a level 1 Bard should get an 18 Charisma. With that +4 charisma modifier he can get a 14 on any performance skill by taking 10. Add in charisma buffs, Masterwork items, and he should be able to do most things well and still crank out masterpieces with his main skill.

 

[Chimera]

I would allow a Bard to take up an additional Perform type for every 3 ranks in Perform

Exactly what I was thinking before I hit your post.

If you want an advantage there for Bards, make it 1/3 for Bards and 1/5 for everyone else.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Here's another way to look at 3.0 Perform:

1st-level fighter (excluding feats) has a +1 with any weapon.

20th-level fighter (excluding feats) has a +20 with any weapon.

1st-level bard (excluding charisma) has a +4 with any instrument.

20th-level bard (excluding charisma) has a +23 with any instrument.

So for a fighter fighting, or a bard performing, the difference between a 1st-level character and a 20th-level one is a net +19 to the relevant role, with any of each class's tools (weapons, instruments).

Now granted, in each case the 20th-level character can use feats to specialize. The fighter might have Weapon Focus, Specialization, and improved Critical with a +5 greatsword of smackdown. And the bard may have Skill Focus (Perform) and a Celestial Harp of Angelic Song (+10 to perform checks).

But the bottom line is, unspecialized, the 20th-level character is +19 better than the 1st-level one.

So what's the problem here? Why is it more unrealistic for the bard to be good at all instruments but the fighter can be good with all weapons?

What kind of realism is gained from restricting bards, that isn't immediately lost again by leaving fighters unhindered?

Perform is a bard's "musical aptitude" that goes up in levels, even as BAB is a fighter's melee aptitude. And like the fighter, the bard shouldn't have to worry about which instrument/method of performance he uses. It makes no mechanical difference, and only serves to screw those players who want a more varied, archtypal bard. (Others might have different knowledge, but as far as my reading is concerned, fantasy bards have always been masters of several different kinds of performance.)

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Another thought:

It'd make more sense to me if we kept 3.0 Perform, but created feats that allowed bards to gain advantages with certain perform types, than to differentiate between Perform (Stringed Instruments) and Perform (Singing).

INSTRUMENT FOCUS [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Perform, 1 rank.
Benefit: You are particularly skillful with a particular instrument. Choose one instrument (such as harp, panpipes, or drums). When you use that instrument to make a Perform check, add +5 to the roll.
Normal: Perform checks are 1d20+cha+Perform skill ranks.
Special: Singing can be considered an "instrument" for the purposes of this feat. This feat can be taken multiple times, each time, it applies to a different instrument.

INSTRUMENT SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Perform, 10 ranks, Instrument Focus, Bardic Music ability.
Benefit: You are extremely skilled with a particular instrument. Choose one instrument for which you already have Instrument Focus (such as harp, panpipes, or drums). When using this instrument with the Bardic Music Ability, your bard level is considered 3 levels higher than normal for effects determined by bard level. For example, your ability to fascinate increases by one creature. This ability does not allow you to access Bardic Music types that you cannot normally use.
Normal: A bard uses his bard level to determine the effects of Bardic Music.
Special: Singing can be considered an "instrument" for the purposes of this feat. This feat can be taken multiple times, each time, it applies to a different instrument.

Feats such as these would be helpful in creating the proper flavor of "specialization" among bards. However, they wouldn't penalize bards who want to (and should be able to) perform very well with a variety of different instruments.