[3.5] Perform -- Does it annoy you as well?

[Spatula]

Perform used to annoy me, but now that it's been fixed in 3.5 it no longer does.

I do think, however, that the Bardic music prereqs should have lower skill rank requirements, to accomodate for bards that want to learn multiple types of perform.

 

[buzz]

It *still* bugs me that bards are the only class that need to spend skill points to get a class ability.

Well, rangers (or anyone who takes the feat, really) need Survival to make use of Track... wizards need Spellcraft to copy spells into their spellbooks... and, under 3.0, at least, class-exclusive skills were essentially class abilities that required skill checks.

But, yeah, I see your point.

 

[Christian]

Actually, there's a big difference when I smash your instruments to little bits, and because you decided not to take any Perform (Sing), you lose the ability to use your bardic music.

Whose rule is that? You still have the Perform ranks needed to qualify for the ability; and Perform isn't a trained-only skill, so you can perfectly well sing at your base Charisma bonus, and use all of your bardic music abilities just as well. (Except for Fascinate, which will have a really crappy saving throw. )

I'm playing a 3.0 Bard right now, and converting the Perform skill is near the bottom of my list of worries right now. (Losing the high-level bardic music abilities because of her Rogue multiclassing, and the added/dropped/level changed spells run a lot higher on my list.) Max out singing, put some of those new extra skill points in string instruments and oratory, and I'll fully capture the flavor of her performance history with some skill points left over. Now, someone who had a broad variety of types of performance in their list, and consistently used all of them, would have some serious role-playing issues in this conversion. But mechanically, I don't see a downside in this change.

 

[hong]

It *still* bugs me that bards are the only class that need to spend skill points to get a class ability.

A rogue who doesn't spend points on Disable Device ain't gonna be getting much mileage out of trapfinding. Similarly a ranger who doesn't spend on Survival ain't gonna be doing much tracking.

 

[Sinistar]

As a bard player, I like the change. It gives a better grasp I think on the way the skill should work.

However, I was one of the ones that complained bitterly about the lack of skill points for the Bard in 3.0. The skill points given in 3.5 got subsumed with the change to the perform skill. So the system giveth and it taketh away.

Essentially the problem just comes back to the same one. Bards don't get enough skill points. They should be moved to 8 along with rogues.

Now personally, I don't think that anyone gets enough skill points (with the possible exception of a bright rogue) and have house ruled that all characters get 3 class skills at 1st level that they can choose to go up one rank each level. This is essentially 3 extra skill points per level. So far (we are still low level) this has been wonderful. Our fighter actually has more than two skills to go along with his 4-5 feats, and the cleric can occasionally spot things that are blatantly obvious to everyone else.

 

[coyote6]

Gotta agree with Etan. Whatever else you can say about the new Perform, it's much more realistic this way

Realism, in this case, is not a benefit. It isn't much more realistic --actually, it's worse in some cases, as before you could have a lute player who couldn't play a harp to save his life, but now the lute player's ranks Perform (Stringed Instruments) make him just as good with lute, harp, mandolin, cello, violin, or electric guitar. And it's worse mechanically, in that it requires more ranks to keep the same level of competence as a 3.0e character.

(As for Craft (weaponsmithing) vs. Craft (armorsmithing) -- I wouldn't be bothered if they were the same skill, or skill in one carried over to skill in the other (beyond a paltry synergy bonus). )

 

[Sagiro]

The variety of opinions in this thread moved me to spend five minutes whipping up an actual sample bard, to illuminate the true extent of the problem, assuming it exists.

My assumptions: a human bard with a 12 INT and 16 CHA at 1st level. That means 32 starting skill points, and 8 each level thereafter. At 1st level, taking ability bonuses into account, a bard who wanted to put 60% of her skill points into Perform skills and 40% into other stuff might look like this:

Dance +7
Oratory +7
Sing +7
Strings +7
Winds +7
Diplomacy +5
Gather Info +5
Sense Motive +3
Listen +3
Concentration +6

That seems pretty good... a 1st level bard has a 65% chance of producing an "enjoyable performance" in any sort of dance, storytelling, singing, or dozen individual string or wind instruments. Plus she's got a decent Concentration for his spells, and a smattering of points in other bardy skills.

By 10th level, assuming she has put 2 more points into CHA, and found a +2 CHA-enhancing item, her skills look like this:

Dance +17 (12 ranks + 5 points for CHA)
Oratory +17
Sing +18
Strings +18
Winds +18
Diplomacy +13
Gather Info +12
Sense Motive +9
Listen +9
Concentration +12

Now, with a 90-95% chance of success, she can deliver a "great performance, "may be invited to join a professional troupe," and "may develop a regional reputation." And that's true if she's dancing a jig, reciting an epic, describing the party's last adventure, playing the fiddle, harp, lute, mandolin, flute, recorder, pipes, trumpet or coronet, singing a well-known ballad, belting out local drinking songs, or delivering her latest flattering composition about the Duke. (Not to mention that she's pretty good at pumping the crowd for information after the performance!)

Throw in a masterwork harp (a likelihood by this level) and she has a +20 in her best mode of performance. I don't feel like I've created a munchkin character here, but this bard can take 10, pluck the strings, and deliver a concert that "may draw attention from extra-planar beings."

You can take some of those points away and put them into other skills and still have enough performing mojo to dazzle the crowds in a variety of performing arts. You just can't do nearly everything anymore.

Now, plenty of the house rules listed here are no doubt fine. (Dr. Rictus's example probably has the best combo of fun and simplicity, if realism isn't a concern.) And maybe other people have different expectations about bards, or maybe I've screwed up the math. But I thought this example might be interesting as a sample.

-Sagiro

 

[Steverooo]

Now personally, I don't think that anyone gets enough skill points...

Exactly (and this seems to be a general trend in RPGs, these days)!... but that's another topic!...

 

[JPL]

Bad example. Cowbells aside, opera singers are judged on their ability to act as well as (if secondary to) the quality of their singing. The same applies even more to musical theater, which is something it's got to be hard to avoid if you're training as an actor.

I don't think it strains credulity to say that an opera tenor is maxed out in both Perform: Act and Perform: Sing. From what I understand, it's a rigorous discipline. I'm not sure that those high ranks in Acting are really needed, since the acting is, as you state, secondary to the singing. A professional opera singer also need to know some French, German, and Italian...maybe all those skill points is one of the reasons it's such a rare accomplishment to become a professional-level tenor.

And I don't have trouble with the idea that a professional in the field of musical theatre is maxed out in Perform, Sing, and Dance.

But in 3.0, it's impossible to improve at a single form of performance. Granted, in 3.5, every fiddle player can also play all other stringed instruments, but I simply find that easier to swallow than the "instant mastery" effect when a 3.0 character adds a new level of Proficiency.

I think that very few people are a true "triple threat", however. More common are those high Charisma folks who have a primary field but also dabble elsewhere, relying mainly on that Charisma boost. Many actors who sing and singers who act probably fall under that category.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

A rogue who doesn't spend points on Disable Device ain't gonna be getting much mileage out of trapfinding. Similarly a ranger who doesn't spend on Survival ain't gonna be doing much tracking.

and

Well, rangers (or anyone who takes the feat, really) need Survival to make use of Track... wizards need Spellcraft to copy spells into their spellbooks... and, under 3.0, at least, class-exclusive skills were essentially class abilities that required skill checks.

I should clarify -- bards are the only class that need skill ranks to have access to a class-specific ability.

The ranger can still try to track with minimal ranks in Survival, and the wizard can try to scribe a spell with minimal ranks in Spellcraft, and they get to add magic items, stat bonuses, etc., into the skill check. A rogue can sneak attack without ever spending a point in Hide or Move Silently. Barbarian can, rage, clerics can turn, etc.

If they said a bard had to make a skill check at some DC to succeed in using bardic music, it wouldn't bother me as much, since I wouldn't be basically forced to max one skill every level. Pick up some stat boosts, or magic instrument that adds a bonus to perform checks, and I can free a couple points here and there for the other stuff.