[3.5] Perform -- Does it annoy you as well?

Etan Moonstar said:
A high level bard with no ranks in Perform can still fight as well as a rogue, cleric, or druid (better than a wizard or sorcerer), can still cast spells better than a paladin, ranger, or non-spellcasting class, and can still use whatever skills he took instead of Perform. He also still has access to his wealth of Bardic Knowledge. How exactly does this not fit the "jack-of-all-trades" description?

A bard fights as well as a rogue, cleric, or druid? Maybe if the rogue "forgets" how to use sneak attacks, the cleric "forgets" to cast magic vestment/greater magic weapon/shield of faith, and the druid suddenly "forgets" that he can shape into a bear. The bard can start singing for a +2 to attack and damage - oh he can't, he didn't take any skill points in Perform! The Bard no longer has spells that directly affect damage and armor (which is supposed to be compensated for with his improved songs). If BAB told the complete story, why differentiate fighters and barbarians?

Of course he can cast spells better than the pseudo-spellcasters (and naturally, the non-spellcasters). He gets spells from first level. And yeah, he can use skills, blablabla. But would a bard without the Perform skill still be a bard? He might as well have been a fighter-thief.

We're digressing here - I'm discussing the indispensibility Perform skill and the fact that the bard skill-point increase is supposed to reflect his jack-of-trades tag. Do you think that is incorrect?
 
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Etan Moonstar said:
2E: Bard became a core class requiring 12 Dex, 13 Int, and 15 Cha (and could only be human or half-elf). All bards could sing and play ONE musical instrument (not one group of them) of his choice. He could learn more instruments by spending proficiency slots--he got three slots to start, and gained another every four levels (and spending another slot on Musical Instrument meant you couldn't spend one on another skill). Either his music or his poetry/stories could now produce the bardic special abilities.

I played a Bard in 2E. And if I remember correctly, for every proficiency slot spent on instruments, you learned to play multiple instruments. It was something like 3-4 instruments per slot.

Now that might not have been the core rules -- we used all of the character handbooks, and that rule might have come from the Complete Bard's Handbook. But I do remember getting multiple instruments per proficiency slot.
 
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Rodrigo Istalindir said:
Ranks in Perform (X) will stack for purposes of Bardic Music so long as you are doing both. If you have Perform (V) at 5 Ranks, and Perform (I) at 3, then you have Perform (X) at 8 ranks when singing and playing the mandolin while trying to charm that ogre.

So... as a 10th-level bard with Perform (V) 13 and Perform (I) 13, I get to use 26 ranks, in addition to my Charisma?

That's simply... ridiculous. I could affect creatures that a 20th-level bard with Perform (V) 23 ranks couldn't.

EDIT: Duh. I need to compute skill ranks.
 
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I said my opinions on this allready, but here goes again.

The change addresses a consistancy issue with a very minor part of the system. It really doesn't matter which way it's handled. The Perform skill is a small part of the game in the first place.

That's what annoys me about the change, the skill isn't worth much worry in the first place. Now it's what, 8 skills worth? That's getting highly rich and detailed for this system. Is the perform skill worth more than the ability to accurately discern details about the environment? Environmental awareness covers 3 skills search, spot, and listen. So, in a silly form of measure, can we say that perform is about two and a half times more important than Environmental awareness?

It just seems like time and effort that could be spent better elsewhere within the game system.
 

Looks like I've got time for one more reply before bed after all (since the next two nights are gaming nights, I'll most likely not have time to post again until Saturday).

Crying ""Powergamer" and "Whiner" to Those Who Prefer 3.0 Perform: You mistake me, sir (although I admit I might have gotten a tad carried away--quite hot here, and my A/C unit won't arrive for a few days yet). There are many people who have posted good arguments in favor of the 3.0 system (simplicity of play preferred to realism being the best one, although it does rub me the wrong way, given my profession), and if it seemed I was including them in the "whining powergamer" category, my apologies. I was chiefly directing that description to those who are complaining because they are forced to choose between an uber-do-it-all bard (an archetype which I feel has no basis in most rpgs, history, or literature) and using the extra skill points on mechanically-useful skills.

2E Proficiencies: Some were indeed more useful than others, and the system was generally a mess (and consistency of using it varied greatly from DM to DM). That said, the following proficiencies were "useful" (providing mechanically-defined advantages as opposed to pure roleplaying) and easily-accessible to bards: Direction Sense, Languages (Modern), Riding (Airborne), Riding (Land-based), Rope Use, Swimming, Blind-fighting (costs 2 slots), Disguise, Forgery, Juggling (allowed you to catch thrown weapons), Set Snares, Tightrope Walking, Tumbling, Armorer (2 slots), Bowyer/Fletcher, Endurance (2 slots), Hunting, Running, Survival (2 slots), Tracking (2 slots), Weaponsmithing (3 slots), Reading/Writing. 2E non-weapon proficiencies included both 3E feats and 3E skills, and you got way fewer "points" to spend on them. Even if a 3.5 bard chooses to spend an extra point or two on Perform to master more performance types, he'll still end up with many more skills than he'd have in 2E (who, if you were playing with a DM who did follow the NWP rules as written, was indeed hindered).

2E Musical Instruments: Oops, the number of instruments provided by this NWP (non-weapon proficiency) was on my comparison notes, but didn't make my post. Putting another slot in this gave you a measly two specific instruments. Don't have Complete Bard's easily-accessible (and don't feel like digging up and reinstalling Core Rules 2.0), so I can't say what it may or may not have done.

Bard Fighting: Ah, I see, you're comparing class special abilities, as opposed to core abilities such as BAB, skill points, spellcasting, etc. Yes, the bard, to be effective, must use one of his six skill points on Perform. That still leaves him five points and a list of class skills greater than any other class but the rogue. From a purely skill-based perspective, the rogue is the 3/3.5E jack-of-all-trades (which the rogue, and not the bard, was designed to be). From an all-around perspective, the bard, with his decent combat capabilities, spellcasting abilities (the key aspect that the rogue lacks), and skill choices, is the general jack-of-all-trades. And don't forget the corollary of the phrase: "jack of all trades, master of none." A bard (or a rogue) can be a true jack of all trades by spreading his skill points among all his class skills, and by so doing will certainly be master of none of them. The problem I see is that too many people wish to be jack-of-all-trades, as well as master of all (which is the attitude I'm describing when I refer to powergaming). Me, I'd say the bard's spellcasting ability and bardic powers are worth three skill points (counting the obligatory Perform point as a "lost" point) and sneak attack.

Final Thought About Required Perform Ranks: I can certainly understand Chalcedony's point about the bard being required to use one of his skill points to use one of his chief class functions--a decent houserule would be to give the bard maximum rank in a category of Perform as a bonus class feature. However, considering the alternatives, tying bardic abilities in to both bard level and ranks in Perform is probably the most elegant solution to the situation. Otherwise you end up with: a first-level bard/high-level whatever with full access to bardic abilities (tying them only to Perform and not to level, allowing other characters to gain the abilities by taking ranks in Perform along with a qualifying level of bard); a high-level bard who can do the most amazing things with his music, although he can barely carry a tune (tying the abilities only to bard level, permitting the bard to get away with a single measly skill point in Perform, if indeed that point is even required); a campaign world where nobody but bards can sing or otherwise perform (making Perform only available to bard, and tying his abilities to Perform); or more than one mechanic to cover the same thing--making music (creating one mechanic to govern bardic music and another to govern general musical abilities).

And Finally....: Good night all. Given how this thread exploded beyond what I imagined when I first saw and posted to it, I have no doubt it'll still be going strong on Saturday, so I'll see you then. :)
 

ThoughtBubble said:
The change addresses a consistancy issue with a very minor part of the system. It really doesn't matter which way it's handled. The Perform skill is a small part of the game in the first place.

That's what annoys me about the change, the skill isn't worth much worry in the first place.

[MUNCH]

It just seems like time and effort that could be spent better elsewhere within the game system.

Hey, maybe one of the designers working on 3.5 was a musician (since we're the ones who were so bothered by the old system). :D

(Had to leave with a bit of levity.) :)
 

Etan Moonstar said:


Hey, maybe one of the designers working on 3.5 was a musician (since we're the ones who were so bothered by the old system). :D

(Had to leave with a bit of levity.) :)

Thanks for the levity. But I sure wish you'd responded to some of the snipped stuff. :)
 

Etan Moonstar said:
One more thing I just noticed that can't go unanswered: you get better at singing or playing an instrument while most of your concentration is focused on dodging dragon breath, fangs, and claws HOW??? :eek: The bard gets better through the hours of practice he puts in while walking down the road, in camp, in town, or any other non-stressful situation where he can focus on developing his talents--all of this represented by spending skill points.

No. A musician gets better through the hours of practice he puts in his art. A bard gets better by gathering the willpower and self-confidence necessary to inspire his allies even in front of a dragon. A bard is NOT a musician, as all RL musicians seem to think. A bard is a class in a fictional world. It looks to me like in 3e musicians were 'rubbed the wrong way' because they think bards got it easy, while they had to suffer on their instrument. Again I ask: do your characters need some more effort and pain? Is 3e perform unrealistic? Yes it is. But the 3.5e fix basically says that it takes the same time and effort becoming a world known drummer than a world known historian that knows everything about what happened in every age. Or a cartographer that knows every single city in the world. Or a man trained to survive in every possible environment. Or a naturalist that know everything about every single plant and animal. That's not realism you want. That's realism applied only to your profession. And we, the 'bard powergamers' (I think this definition could get a lot of people rolling on the floor laughing outside of this thread) and 'whiners' are just saying that this doesn't seem fair to us.

Oh and about 2e proficiency system (which I hated and house-ruled as soon as I could) won't we tell that back in the days the 20th level fighter could use something like 10 weapons? and that if you had an high stat you got indeed instant mastery?
 
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Well, with the changes to Perform in 3.5, I suppose I should expect all the Knowledge skills (not to mention Survival, Disable Device, etc.) to be broken down into more "realistic" subskills as well in 4.0....
 

Michael Tree said:
This change is, IMO, the worst thought out change in 3.5.

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