D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Planar Ally changes?

[drnuncheon]

My group hasn't abused planar ally (probably because it's so easy to see how a GM can abuse PCs right back), so I think I'll probably mostly waive the XP cost. I can see where the XP cost would be very handy to check overuse, though.

One thing I'm considering is using the XP cost as a 'down payment' on the services, at the standard magic item rate of 1 XP = 25 gp. That way the summoner is going to get a /little/ something at least.

J

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yeah, but the point is that a planar ally will tend to be significantly more powerful than any old merc.

Otherwise, why not just do it yourself??

You would think so, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Say I am a 10th level caster and I want a 5 HD guard for a month. I could use Planar Ally and pay 15000 gp plus 100xp. Or I could hire a 5th level warrior for 45 gp (DMG 3.0 page 148-149).

Certainly the planar ally would be more powerful. But it seems to me that 100 5th level warriors at a third the cost would be a better guard.

 

[Azul]

You would think so, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Say I am a 10th level caster and I want a 5 HD guard for a month. I could use Planar Ally and pay 15000 gp plus 100xp. Or I could hire a 5th level warrior for 45 gp (DMG 3.0 page 148-149).

Certainly the planar ally would be more powerful. But it seems to me that 100 5th level warriors at a third the cost would be a better guard.

Sounds like a logical reason why most fortifications are manned by warriors rather than snazzy outsider troops. They are far cheaper.

Still, sometimes, outsiders have special abilities that let them do stuff even 100 grunts couldn't (e.g. teleportation, flight, whatnot).

 

[Olive]

Sounds like a logical reason why most fortifications are manned by warriors rather than snazzy outsider troops. They are far cheaper.

Quite. Sounds like a good change to me!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Quite. Sounds like a good change to me!

Yeah those changes that make spells moronic to cast there great changes. The XP cost in it self would be enough to stop people from manning the defenses of a keep with outsiders. Though it may make it so they use outsiders in key positions, sort of like they should in a fantasy game. With these high GP costs though only dumb people will summon outisders for these key tasks.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Still, sometimes, outsiders have special abilities that let them do stuff even 100 grunts couldn't (e.g. teleportation, flight, whatnot).

Undoubtedly, yes. But a factor of 300 difference in price is a little hard to overcome.

A 10th level NPC Evil Wizard would be bankrupted by hiring a 6 HD guardian for a single month. Hazzardous duties? Forget it!

The net effect is DMs will simply have to cheat for NPCS. Is that an improvement? Besides, that would be an implicit admission the spell write it is hopelessly wrong.

(Hey, I am all for DMs playing a little fast and loose for the cause of creativity and ease of play. But if your NPCs are doing things that are outright impossible under vanilla rules, than that is crossing the line in my book.)

Let's just look at a vanilla use: Call an 8 HD Earth Elemental for a fight. Base cost 800 gp. Double that for hazardous duty. 1600 gp + 250 xp + spell. If we convert xp to gp at a rate of 5 per point,, that is 2850 gp + spell. Would your 10th level wizard ever want to burn 5% of his total wealth for a modest temporary benefit?

 

[ruleslawyer]

Solution: Bump down the cost one step.

Tasks of 1 min/caster level: 25 gp/HD for tasks of up to 1 min per caster level,

100gp/HD for tasks of up to 1 hour per caster level.

500gp/HD for tasks of up to 1 day per caster level.

Nonhazardous tasks have that amount, hazardous tasks typically increase it. Few creatures will take a task that seems suicidal.

Lesser: up to 6HD, 50 xp cost.

standard: 1 or 2, no more than 12HD, 100 xp.

Greater: 1, 2 or 3, no more than 18HD, 250 xp.

So summoning a pit fiend (18 HD) for 1 minute per caster level is now 450 gp and 250 xp. Seems fair to me for a CR 20 creature. Or you can get a 9-HD succubus for 1 day per level at a cost of 4500 gp and 100 xp. Again, fair. I think that a rule that allows rebalancing with such simple changes as these is far, far superior to the 3.0 planar ally spells.

Incidentally, Shard: Clerics can't teleport. Also, CR 12+ mercs aren't particularly easy to come by, and finding members of PC caster classes (the closest analogue to the diversely-powerful outsiders possible with the planar ally spells) is likely to be more difficult still.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Incidentally, Shard: Clerics can't teleport. Also, CR 12+ mercs aren't particularly easy to come by, and finding members of PC caster classes (the closest analogue to the diversely-powerful outsiders possible with the planar ally spells) is likely to be more difficult still.

If you are offering to pay 500 gp to 1000 gp per day for generally non-hazardous duties, there will be takers from the far ends of the plane. I know where you can find some pretty competent adventuring PCs who would sign up. I think my typical rate for guarding a merchant caravan through the Valley of the Shadow of Death is about 1/20th that on a good day. Hey! My DMs have been ripping me off!

I think you are right that the prices need to be bumped down across the board.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Incidentally, Shard: Clerics can't teleport. Also, CR 12+ mercs aren't particularly easy to come by, and finding members of PC caster classes (the closest analogue to the diversely-powerful outsiders possible with the planar ally spells) is likely to be more difficult still.

Yeah, yeah it was just a quick example showing how lame these prices are. In a team you just hand the wizard some cash and he hires the mercs. And if your not in a team these mercs have a monthly rate anyways so there already with you.

Persanlly I'd drop the costs and vary the XP cost a bit more.

For the elsser verison something like

1 min/level 100xp
1 hour/level 150xp
1 day/level 200xp

hazord pay x2 xp.

1st off the money was too much.
2nd it just makes more sense to me that an outsider would bargain for things like your XP,(lifeforce, magical energy type thing) over a pile of gold.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You would think so, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Say I am a 10th level caster and I want a 5 HD guard for a month. I could use Planar Ally and pay 15000 gp plus 100xp. Or I could hire a 5th level warrior for 45 gp (DMG 3.0 page 148-149).

Certainly the planar ally would be more powerful. But it seems to me that 100 5th level warriors at a third the cost would be a better guard.

I think there are a lot of people who think so, and go for the 100 guards.
And then, a meteor swarm later, they're unguarded agin.


Anyway, the cost is far to high, but you have forgotten a little detail:

PHB 3.5, Page 261, Planar Ally, Lesser

...However, if the task is strongly aligned with the creature's ethos, the DM may halve or even waive the payment.

Planar ally isn't something you cast to clean the jakes. You won't call Lolth's handmaidens to help you arrange some flower bouquet. You won't get a planetar to go get some milk and crackers.
You use that spell if you really need the help, and need it badly (after all, it has an XP cost). You'll use it for the greater good of your deity and your church (such as fighting a really powerful enemy of your god, who has murdered countless worshippers). End in these cases, the DM will surely agree that you pay less (or even nothing) for that "service".
For more mundane services, you can use summon monster or paid labour.

But the base costs should still be lower, so you will at least consider using planar ally even when it's not absolutely necessary and 100% for the better good of the church.