D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Question About Grapple

[Water Bob]

Shouldn't the Armor Check Penalty be applied to Grapple checks?

After a foe is grappled, he may attempt to break from that grapple using either an opposed grapple check or rolling his Escape Artist skill vs. his opponent's grapple check.

The Escape Arstist skill is modified by the Armor Check Penalty.

Doesn't it make sense that the Grapple check should also be modified by the Armor Check Penalty?

 

[Omegaxicor]

I think that is part of being proficient with an armour, knowing how to move within it

 

[emoplato]

Grapple is a strength check while escape artist is a dexterity based skill so AC penalty doesn't apply. In 3.x grapple never was about being agile and going for certain areas like in wrestling to submit an opponent. It is all about how big I am and how little you are so I can crush you.

 

[Sekhmet]

Not a lot of flexibility is required for proficient grappling. It can definitely help, but it isn't necessary in the majority of situations.

 

[Water Bob]

Hm...

Just playing Devil's Advocate here, not arguing the point: My trouble is two-fold. First, the definition of grappling. My book (Conan RPG 2E) says that grapple covers "All forms of offensive holding, including the ancient art of wrestling, are considered actions of the grapple type."

If you are wrestling, you certainly are wiggling around a bit, trying to grip your opponent, lay him down, put him in a hold.

That implies STR and DEX to me.

And, then, if someone grapples with you, you can escape from that grapple by either rolling a grapple check (which is STR based) or using yur Escape Artist skill, which is DEX based.

If you use the Escape Artist skill, you are penalized with the Armor Check Penalty. The rules read that, if you use the grapple check, you are not penalized with the ACP.

It seems a little strange to me that one is penalized with the ACP and one isn't.




I think I can see the difference, though. With the grapple check, you're attempting to use your brute strength to break out of your opponent's hold. With the Escape Artist skill, you may be wiry little mook, weak, but able to worm your way out of holds.

 

[Empirate]

I think your last point is what's important here. With a grapple check, you're using a combat technique to force the other guy to let you go: you attempt to stab him in the eyes, you twist his wrist to apply pain, you stretch so he can't hold you the way he did before, you slowly open his fingers one by one... whatever. Armor neither helps nor hinders you here, because it will protect some portions of your body in a grapple (knee buckles making it hard to twist your leg or something) - but it also provides some good handholds.

Escape Artist is more the trained talent of "how to move the body in really unconventional ways in order to wriggle out of restraints". It WILL be hampered by armor, since escape artists must usually try to wriggle out of everything that limits their movement at the same time. If you've ever seen a professional perform, you know they sometimes get strapped into several layers of bonds (like two straitjackets and some chains on top of that). When they've wriggled about a while, you suddenly see their bare midriff showing somewhere, and suddenly a whole naked arm is free somehow... Apply this image to armor, and the armor just becomes one more thing to wriggle out of. Hence the ACP, as it's harder to get rid of rigid platemail than of smooth leather armor.

 

[Greenfield]

While I'll continue to play the rules as written, I can see Water Bob's point.

Wearing armor gives the opponent more things to grab onto, and it can definitely impede motion. Just watch two Hockey players go at it if you have a doubt. And if you've ever watched Sumo, you know how important it can be to deny your opponent something to grab.

And there are Strength based skills that Armor Check penalties apply to (Jump, Climb, Swim to name a few) so it's not as if there wasn't some precedent, concept wise.

And if "learning to move in armor" could counter this, why doesn't it counter it when running, jumping, climbing or swimming?

Remember that Armor Check Penalty is independent of simple encumbrance, so it isn't just the impact of the weight on these activities, it's the restrictive nature of armor.

So his question is a valid one.

My answer, by the way, will be light on visceral satisfaction.

There are many factors that come into play when you design a game. Often you have to sacrifice realism for playability. This is one of those times.

To start with, Grapple rules aren't particularly realistic. They make no distinction between a wrist lock and a bear hug, and make no distinctions about size until the difference is extreme (one size category, which is usually double height and eight times weight). So an appeal to "realism" is kind of weak from the start.

Most grappling monsters don't wear armor, and most PCs do, so this would tip the scales even more in favor of those grappling monsters.

Further, it would add one more factor to consider in an already clunky game mechanic.

Remember that the ideal game mechanic is resolved with a single dice roll. Most in D&D use two: One for the attack or Save and one for the damage or other effect.

Grapple already uses three at a minimum and in some cases four: Touch Attack (which frequently sends players scrambling to find their Touch AC), opposed Grapple checks (which also sends players searching their sheets to find or calculate the correct modifier), and in some cases a damage roll.

And two or three of those are repeated automatically every round until the Grapple ends.

Adding another modifier to the mix doesn't add anything to the game, it just makes the players scramble a bit more when the situation comes up.

If the mechanic were in the same time zone as realism, such an appeal to realism would mean something. You'd be adding some polish. As it is, you'd be trying to polish a rusty cement mixer. You really shouldn't bother.

 

[Water Bob]

While I'll continue to play the rules as written, I can see Water Bob's point.

When I post these questions or observations, I'm usually looking for a reason to stay with RAW. I like to solicit other's opinions and maybe look at the problem from a set of eyes other than my own.

With this one, I'm going to stick with RAW, too, because I can see a bit of a difference between STR and DEX based checks. The rule is basically saying that STR based checks don't require the Armor Check Penalty, but because of the nature of the maneuver, DEX based checks do.

OK...it's enough for me to stick with RAW.

To start with, Grapple rules aren't particularly realistic.

I think they're about as realistic as most things in 3.5 (and any other D&D edition). The abstract d20 attack throw covers the same amount of realism. The Grapple rules are just as abstract.

Remember that the ideal game mechanic is resolved with a single dice roll. Most in D&D use two: One for the attack or Save and one for the damage or other effect.

I've heard people gripe about the D&D grapple rules. Conan 1st edition and the Atlantean edition used the same rule, but grapple was revamped and cleaned up in Conan 2nd edition, which is the edition I play.

In order to grapple someone, it's resolved in a single throw. First, the target gets the usual Attack of Opportunity (and, there are ways around even this). If that attack misses or fails to do damage on the attacker (remember, Conan armor absorbs damage, so the AoO could result in a hit with no damage), then the attacker makes a single Grapple check. If the check is successful, then the character is successful in grappling his foe. If the check fails, the grapple fails. Simple as that.

 

[Empirate]

To be completely honest, I could never grasped what part in particular people dislike about 3.x grapple rules. In my opinion, they cover an entire subsection of combat, which has enough variety in it to support various real-world fighting arts/sports, without clogging up the game. The grapple rules offer a lot of things you can do IN a grapple, as well as some things you can do if you want to get out of it, or join it, or just take advantage of other people grappling each other. I think the system is well done, all in all.

Yes, it takes a few rolls - but after all, rolls aren't any more time-consuming than waiting on an individual player's tactical decisions. Some of my guys dither so much ("Power Attack for 2 or 3?", "risk an AoO to get a flank, or not?", "should I begin raging now, that's gonna hurt my AC so much!", "if I cast defensively I'll have a 75% chance to pull it off... should I risk it, or move first?", etc.) that it can be a boon for the game's flow when they're in a grapple. It provides some options, but not overly many, so all you have to do is look up some numbers and roll those dice, instead of falter in the face of so many decisions.

Furthermore, just like the AoO rules, certain conditions (level loss, entanglement etc.), certain spell categories (summons), certain class abilities (wildshape), grapple only takes some practice to get used to, and some preparation on the DM's part to use smoothly.

The grapple rules may feel a bit clunky, but so do other things in 3.x. Reducing grappling to a single roll, or even reducing ALL combat maneuvers to a single stat roll like Pathfinder does, takes out quite a bit of the game's spice for me.

/rant.

 

[Water Bob]

To be completely honest, I could never grasped what part in particular people dislike about 3.x grapple rules.

I think what you have to go through to initiate a grapple is what turns people off. The grappler makes a touch attack. The defender gets an Attack of opportunity. Then, the grappler must make the acutal grapple.

That's pretty fussy. It's not intuitive. And, it's not patterned after other special attacks like the Disarm or the Sunder.

I like how Conan 2E revamped it to a single roll for the attacker.

Reducing grappling to a single roll, or even reducing ALL combat maneuvers to a single stat roll like Pathfinder does, takes out quite a bit of the game's spice for me.

The single roll I mention above is to start a grapple. You still need to roll to pin your opponent.

And, I completely agree with you about Pathfinder's one-size-fits all combat maneuvers. The various roles used in Conan are much more fun than the generic Pathfinder method.