3.5 Scoops Discussion

[Ravellion]

well, i really dont play speacilist mages, but that still really sucks, and i agree that they should have left Universal a school, what schools <I>Permanency</I>, <I>Lesser Wish</I>, and <I>Wish</I> in now?

Er... Universal? No one actually said that schol was leaving now did they? Someone hoped it would pop up again (I agree, going back to 2e schools would be crap).

If Enchantment, Illusion and Necromancy get a boost, 2 schools but neither of them divination is fine. Divination is hard to give extra spells on the basis of the theme of the school.

 

[Li Shenron]

If Detect Magic and Read Magic cantrips were Divinations instead of Universal, we would see much less specialist with Divination banned.

I don't think this change to banned school is an improvement except that it's simpler, but it not a bad change either. As a matter of fact, it doesn't change that much but makes Necromancers and Diviners a little worse.

I never liked the specialization rules in ANY edition of D&D, specifically I think they have great flavor (so much that this is the only class feature that has even generated different character names, "Necromancer", "Evoker" and so on) but the banned schools mechanic never made any sense. The explanation that a specialist must dedicate more time to his favored school so doesn't have any time for all other schools seems fine but it is not: there is nothing else in D&D which a character is FORBIDDEN to learn unless it is either a specific feature of another class (and you learn it by multiclassing) or either there is an ethical reason to prevent it (alignment, oath, religion). Everything else is available, except banned schools to a Wizard. A Wizard who is supposed to be a master of knowledge, why should he be forbidden to learn one single spell from a school?

I have always used the rules as they are, and they work fine after all, but I never got to convince my players why it works this way.

I think that if there was no banned school at all, the Wizard would still be a very balanced class. Of course it means no generalist Wizards anymore, but who cares? There aren't Clerics without domains or Rangers without favored enemies and nobody complains about that.

 

[Selvarin]

What about trying specialist wizards in this manner?

1) By choosing to specialize in one school all spells of that school are cast at +2 DC. All other spells have a -1 DC penalty (-2 on 7 schools is a bit much);

or

2) Specialize with one school (as above) but instead of having *forbidden schools* as proposed such spells are cast with a -2 DC penalty. That would create a -2 net loss so one could also chip in 'Arcane defense' relating to the specialty. The end result would encourage wizards to specialize without losing access to any given school but still inhibit them in some manner.

By the way, I tend to have diviners in my campaign.

 

[Jalkain]

HI folks. I've just started a new thread on the subject of spell specialisation. Didn't see this thread until afterwards! Anyway, I've tried to make sense of the changes in light of other things that we're seeing changed in 3.5e.

Click here to go to the thread

At the moment I'm undecided whether this change is good or bad, but I think this one is a tough call until the books come out. It really does depend on so many factors.

 

[TiQuinn]

What about trying specialist wizards in this manner?

1) By choosing to specialize in one school all spells of that school are cast at +2 DC. All other spells have a -1 DC penalty (-2 on 7 schools is a bit much);

or

2) Specialize with one school (as above) but instead of having *forbidden schools* as proposed such spells are cast with a -2 DC penalty. That would create a -2 net loss so one could also chip in 'Arcane defense' relating to the specialty. The end result would encourage wizards to specialize without losing access to any given school but still inhibit them in some manner.

By the way, I tend to have diviners in my campaign.

I'd like something along these lines as well. To me, it makes more sense. There really isn't any rhyme or reason as to why a specialist would be banned from any particular school. Also, there are more schools than just Divination that tend to get picked more often than not. Enchantment or Necromancy is usually the first to go. Divination is behind these as most players I've seen don't want to give up Detect Magic, Identify, Read Magic, etc. So really, I don't see how banning schools is going to change anyone's mindset. The -2 loss in DC still gives flexibility and can be enough of a disadvantage to give players thinking about specialization pause.

 

[TiQuinn]

I've had a few specialist wizard in my games (2 Evokers, 1 Transmuter), and while they made the most of their extra spell slot, saves, etc., I never felt that it was unbalancing. Has anyone had some real horror stories that spring up out of wizard specialization?

 

[apocalypstick]

What about trying specialist wizards in this manner?

1) By choosing to specialize in one school all spells of that school are cast at +2 DC. All other spells have a -1 DC penalty (-2 on 7 schools is a bit much);

I think this is a great idea. Consider it stolen.

 

[apocalypstick]

I've had a few specialist wizard in my games (2 Evokers, 1 Transmuter), and while they made the most of their extra spell slot, saves, etc., I never felt that it was unbalancing. Has anyone had some real horror stories that spring up out of wizard specialization?

Except for my personal opinion that giving up Divination is one of the nuttiest choices one can make (because when you need a Div spell, you need a Div spell)... not really.

I do find that PCs who give up access to a school at 1st level for a little extra firepower regret it at higher levels. But at 1st level, it's hard to pass up a 50% increase in spells/day.

I've never seen a wizard character built at 5th level or above that was a specialist. Never.

 

[heirodule]

Half-elves getting bonuses to diplomacy and gather information -- why?

I thought this one was boneheaded too till I reread the description in 3.0 and half-elves are supposed to be well respected go-betweens EXCEPT in elven society, or human societies where elves are distant.

So now they have it backed up with stats. Half-elves were always a pretty sub-optimal choice anyway.

 

[TiQuinn]

Except for my personal opinion that giving up Divination is one of the nuttiest choices one can make (because when you need a Div spell, you need a Div spell)... not really.

I agree about giving up Divination. From what I've seen, not having identify or read magic is kind of like a party that doesn't have healing. They know they need it, and they won't go adventuring or take chances without it. Not having that Read Magic spell becomes more of a momentum killer during a game than being a character disadvantage that enhances the game.